genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

head Ah yes I was probably thinking of Norway. Refuting sometimes get turned into believe the opposite, which I was probably guilty of there? I don't know.... In my head I just thought Sweden has problems too.

Big Language can evolve by people adopting wrong usage. Meanings slip. I have studied some etymology.

You wouldn't recognize a miracle if you required proof. Proof of a spiritual agent at work is problematic, since spirits are non physical entities, they do not exist physically, only spiritually.

Although saying the above Jesus did let Thomas examine Him upon His Resurrection. However I think this was because Thomas had some Faith, he was just fighting his unbelief, and Jesus helped him in this. Thomas was not unbelieving in a proud, superior sense, like some of the Pharisees.

BigDorrit Yes, in Faith though. I have never claimed otherwise. I choose to believe.

If Jesus could show proof to Thomas to help him believe then why not do that for anyone today? The usual argument in the past has been that showing someone proof means they don't get to exercise their faith so it's against the rules.

Further back it was suggested that the OT wasn't terribly important to Christians. But it was the same god right? So we shouldn't ignore what he said should we? I seem to recall the 10 commandants are in the OT.

Although strictly speaking I prefer the Truth, because I am mainly concerned with spiritual Truths. Although I do believe there is historical fact in the Bible.

back The key here is Thomas' attitude. He wasn't unbelieving due to pride or a sense of superiority, he had a seed of Faith, which Jesus nurtured.

The OT is important. It was the same God. It is just that it was more difficult for people of the times to be close to / appreciate / understand the nature of God. This is because the Salvation Christ bought was needed. Through Christ we can have a closer relationship with God. God lives in us (Christians) in Christ, through the Holy Spirit (Comforter).

^^ that should be 'prefer the term Truth...' Typo.

BigDorrit

I don't think it has in this case.

We are talking here about beliefs essentially...Our beliefs, to some extent, will fit our own Cognitive biases / Faith so that our world view remains intact / complete. Unless a person is unhappy with their world view, or something happens to really shake that world view.

or slowly eat away at that world view...

but capsium, that would be why god wouldn't reveal himself to me. I can quite see why he'd find me objectionable and/or a waste of effort and I won't hold it against him
:)

But when a struggling believer begs for help does god appear in a form that cannot be denied to strengthen his belief? When the believer says to the priest "I want to believe so badly. If only god could show himself to me, just once" does god do so? No the priest explains that to do so would deny faith and no matter the consequences god cannot do that.

...except apparently he does sometimes when it suits him.

As for the OT I only mention it (as you probably guessed, knowing me) because the god of the OT is not the gentle ex-carpenter trying to be nice to everyone, but an angry, brutal and selfish god who slaughters men, women and children without reason or conscience. I don't think that should be forgotten when pondering these matters.

Back I don't know. Maybe He has? Would you recognize it? Requiring proof can be a form of pride. If a person requires proof they are relying on their own senses and reasoning.

I believe God does show Himself to someone who genuinely seeks Him.

Sometimes that person has to calm down a bit, though, as we can easily miss stuff in a panic. Unbelief can hinder Faith. I believe God is there for that person though, and will show Himself when the time is right, when that person can receive Him.

I've not forgotten about the brutality of the OT Back, it's what makes the NT really Good News...

Going with the radio analogy, you have to tune a radio in, to receive the broadcast.

Tuning in for a Christian means being attuned to God. This involves seeking Him, reading the Bible, meditating on the Bible, praying, listening to people teach and preach about God, looking for God in life, being Thankful to God, worshiping Him, emulating Him in Christ, Christian Fellowship and celebrating Him.

But Faith develops, it needn't happen all at once...

Maybe He has? Would you recognize it?

I'm talking about something as dramatic as showing up in person with holes in his side that the believer could touch. It's what he did for Thomas.

It's what makes the NT really Good News...

Hmm good news that now Jesus is here god has stopped being evil?

No one ever explained that in a way that made any sense whatsoever. Some did try "Well they were primitive in those days. God had to kill their children in fits of temper to get their attention". Which doesn't really work for me and shouldn't for anyone.

When I talked about countries with a higher proportion of christians, I was talking about morality, crime and prosperity.

Back

Regarding Thomas. He was already a follower of Christ. He did have some Faith already, his doubt existed at the same time as his Faith. However the Faith still was there. Jesus was able to help Thomas release his Faith as dispel the doubts.

I think if you, humbly, ask God to help with your unbelief He will help you. I ask this is most of my prayers. He has helped me.

God was never evil. However although the Bible is God inspired it concerns people writing about their experiences of God. The people in the OT could not easily be as close to God as we can now through Christ. As I said in my earlier post:

capsium Sat 22-Mar-14 13:28:39
head I believe things get intolerably nasty without the possibility of full Redemption. People are flawed, some seriously.

Dealing with the resulting chaos can be heartbreaking and brutal. If you read history and ideas of government, Machiavelli for example, ways preventing crime and maintaining order has always involved brutality.

I think God was as heartbroken as a modern reader at these events. Through the OT He prepared us for the coming of Christ the Saviour. In Faith I believe the timing was right, I am not sure human king could have received His message before.

I meant human kind though in the last sentence. Another typo!

^^ When I referred to you, talking about unbelief I meant any person, not specifically you, Back.

In the end you learn to banish (a lot of the) unbelief. It just feels good, liberating.

I'm still learning though...

Which doesn't really work for me and shouldn't for anyone.

If you don't believe God, for this reason, you need to be questioning the nature of humanity, since it follows, you would believe God to be a human construct.

In this way the Bible still has a valid message with how The Christ account affects the human pscyche. The implications of believing God in Christ sacrificed Himself, to a Redeem human kind, in the NT, whereas before humans made sacrifices to keep Covenant with God, in the OT, are IMO vast.