genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

Psyche ^. Typo.

For one thing it has something to say about love, in love we make sacrifices, but done out of love, we do not expect anything in return. Except we would hope for our sacrifice to be noticed, acknowledgement, appreciation of our sacrifices, giving if ourself, so we can be loved back. Unrequited love can be heartbreaking.

When Marx described alienation, in terms of an alienated worker, it was when a person worked just for the pay. They had no ownership over the product, there was no worth in doing the work for it's own end. The worker was alienated in return for monetary gain. There is no love for the employer. A bit like making sacrifices just to gain reward in payment.

BigDorrit. Your post is not true, but I will agree to differ.

BigDorrit I think beliefs and ideas important. They make us who we are, affect our motivations and values. Religion is a belief system. If we esteem anything greatly, it can create a belief system.

If that esteem is for human kind, it must include everyone...even the Religious. They have an equal right to their beliefs, surely? If not how do you go about deciding which human's have more or less rights, in terms of their beliefs which make them who they are?

And in terms of our caring professions, I think these workers really need to love those in their care. When this love is lost, if they become hardened or disenfranchised due to lack of appreciation and understanding from employers, the results are frightening.

That last post was in reference to "moral" societies.

In all I think a lot can be learnt, concerning how what is held important affects lives and how love is of utmost importance, and what love means, from Bible accounts concerning Christ.

(it's easy to see why we would invent them when we had no understanding of the universe at all).

This I think is an underestimation of ancient people. I think they did understand a lot. I often think in terms if it coming down to different terminology for things, differences in language, which if you don't get to hung up on, or offended by, can still communicate meaning to us today.

FWIW I see the same themes in modern life, the same concerns and motivations. A lot of the brutality is sanitised, now, though it still lies under the surface....Sometimes to me the sanitisation of brutality seems more frightening, as it is so insidious, people hide behind it and are less self aware.

Maybe not more frightening, for insidiousness, but still very frightening.

BigDorrit I don't think less religious societies are more caring though. Just the brutality is more insidious, more ingrained into the infrastructure, institutionalised and as a result

I did state you do not have to be religious to be loving, but Christian belief involves a examination and questioning of what love means, self examination, providing the opportunity for learning and positive development in this area.

^as a result people can be blind to it, the brutality becomes hidden. Sorry I omitted this. Typo.

I have missed a whole load of posts, but just to respond to the last post.

It is a complete fallacy to say that the less religious societies are more institutionally brutal.

I'm sure that religion is not the only cause, but if you compare more secular societies in Western Europe to the sort of brutality currently going on in countries where religion is far more a part of society (e.g Uganda, Central African Republic, Nigeria to name but a few) the brutality there stems from their strongly held religious beliefs. I think the only country that bucks the trend is China, in terms of being at least non-theistic but still quite brutal.

BigDorrit no I'm not. We all come from different starting points, with different strengths and weaknesses. A lot of people find Faith in very weak moments but not all. So there is no more superior less superior. I cannot judge superiority of people.

It was you who said less religious societies "can be seen to be more caring" and I refuted that by saying the brutality can just be more insidious. I cannot judge the superiority or lack of superiority of societies either.

Plenty of wolves around in sheeps clothing unfortunately.

We, christians included, are told to look at what they do, not what they say.

Thistledew we could trade examples for a very long time but I do not think this would provide any answers as to which society is more or less brutal, when you think of all the forms brutality can take. Trying to find a causal link with religion is especially problematic.

BigDorrit not more but equally. Or equally as likely.

With as much potential to be brutal, it could be under the surface and not as easily seen, but not necessarily, could be more overt.

It's not problematic if the laws that encourage the brutality are made because they are explicitly based on religious belief, and if the leaders of the country and of the communities say that people should carry out such brutality because it is god's will.

If you have a genuine belief that your own morality is guided by the bible and because of the relationship that you have with god through prayer, then you have no basis for saying that any other Christian has not formed their own morality in exactly the same way.

There is absolutely no way for you to know that your god has not actually guided another believer to carry out an act of brutality.

If you demand that society accepts that you have a personal relationship with god and that he guides you, you cannot turn around and say "that other person is deluded if they think they have a relationship with god". Because if you are asked why, you would say "it is my belief that no god would guide someone in such a way", which is what atheists say about any claim to a relationship with the Divine. How does your belief get to trump anyone else's?

In brutal societies, there may well be people masquerading as christians. But they are not.

I don't demand society does anything. Though thankfully I do not need to, we have religious freedom in this country.

I do not believe my belief trumps other people's, in terms of God. It is that I believe people tend to experience or live out what they believe. Belief in a vengeful brutal God is likely IMO to lead to a life full of brutality.

Personally, I am thankful, I have focussed my belief on Christ, and How He shows us God, in terms of being a loving living God. This is my personal experience.

But there are many thousands of people who have a personal experience of a god who is vengeful and brutal. Just because you don't believe that your god would behave in that way doesn't mean that those people haven't experienced god in that way. They would say that you are closing your ears to the full voice of god and are turning away from a difficult path because it is easier for you to do so. That's what god tells them.