Exactly what will happen upon my demise

[DoctorTwo]

You will have noticed the title is a statement not a question. What is certain to happen is you lot and all this will cease to exist.

I'm not trying to be mean, but that's just the way it is.

Science and religion are two sides of the same coin. They are both human attempts to explain the universe

Nope. That their apparent objective is the same (although I don't think it actually is), their methodologies are so far apart there's simply no way they can be considered related let alone two sides of the same coin.

Religion is presuppositional. It claims it has the answers and then tries to fit whatever evidence there is around it. Since there actually is no evidence, it invented a nifty little thing called "faith" as a way of hiding that embarrassing fact under the carpet. "Pffff...who needs evidence anyway? Just gotta have faith"! Interestingly, when some evidence appears to show up (although it never turns out to be compelling or even true) they are all over it like flies on a doughnut. So much for "who needs evidence", eh!

Science, conversely, is ALL about the evidence. It changes it's mind as the evidence changes and it's willing to go wherever it takes it - no matter what our personal thoughts on the matter.

All cultures observe the self same things and they explain them in their own way

So? This veers dangerously close to "Well, it's true for me".

Doesn't matter who explains what to themselves and in what way. They are either right or they are not. Science is the only thing that can tell us who is right and who is wrong. Not all "explanations" are equal.

Please explain to me why exactly you would expect to see evidence in this consciousness of things that de facto exist outside of it?

I have absolutely no idea what you mean here.

And assume you do know about the multiple universes theory?

Theory? No. Hypothesis, yes. Do you know the difference?

Have you given any thought to what lies beyond the known universe, what we are expanding into, etc.?

Yes. We're not expanding "into" anything. Space is a physical property of this universe, it's creating it within as it expands.

Possibility/probability of aliens?

Obviously the possibility exists. The probability is hard to determine since we are the only example we currently have of life within the universe. There is a famous attempt called The Drake Equation.

Dark Flow is another hypothesis.

Gaelicsheep, it's fun to speculate about such things. I've been a science fiction fan since I learned to read. The problem is not the speculating, but when people pick a story and decide that it's true without any evidence whatsoever.

Well obviously Hettie you are much cleverer than me. Alternatively, "theory" is a shorter word to type on a mobile than "hypothesis" ;-)

"Please explain to me why exactly you would expect to see evidence in this consciousness of things that de facto exist outside of it?

I have absolutely no idea what you mean here. "

What I mean is that if there are things out there that humans are incapable of experiencing due to the limitations of the human consciousness, how exactly would you expect to see evidence of them? Of course, I know it isn't as if science requires large quantities of energy and matter of unknown type to make its equations work - oh hang on...

Also there are some very interesting scientific writings about end of life experiences, and when you explore these you realise that opinions about what happens at the end of life are very far from being clear cut, even in the scientific/medical community. For example, there is acknowledgement that reports of seeing dead relatives are a clear sign that death is approaching, and the literature distinguishes these very clearly from the hallucinations associate with terminal agitation.

And by the way, I do mean end of life experiences NOT near death experiences, which are not at all the same thing.

Final point, I promise. How many of you who are denying that consciousness could conceivably continue in some form, after what we term "death", have actually witnessed a natural death? I'm just interested. I do have a vested interest, and I will be starting another thread in due course about my own experience - it's not one for discussion on a thread like this. But let me be clear that I have a scientific background and I am a natural sceptic.

I'd be interested in these 'interesting scientific writings about end of life experiences' though I don't see how it could be more than speculation and anecdote from people who are very sick.

Is anyone denying that consciousness could conceivably continue in some form, after what we term "death"? Surely the point is that everything we can measure has things ending and falling apart. For there to be more than speculation there needs to be some evidence.

Consider that we don't assume carrots have an afterlife even though we have no proof they do not. Nor do we assume that an electric kettle on a garbage dump decays in this world, but continues on in the next.

Even everyday observation appears to show that consciousness and thought occur in the physical brain. If it were entirely in the soul surely brain damage and senility wouldn't be such a problem.

oh and 'things out there that humans are incapable of experiencing due to the limitations of the human consciousness' are not a problem since we can measure lots of things that we can't directly experience. I've seen a detailed explanation of the first microseconds after the detonation of a nuclear bomb, but I've never seen that close up.

If you meant 'forever beyond our understanding' I'd want some evidence that there is anything. (There might be)

BackOnlyBriefly - I'm sure you'll understand that it's a little close to home at the moment (in fact I really shouldn't be on this thread at all!) but things written by Dr Peter Fenwick about what to expect when witnessing a death would be a good example. I don't really want to go delving back into all the details again, and I haven't made a comprehensive reading list as I've been going along.

It is not anecdotes from the very sick that I am talking about, it is a multitude of experiences reported by professionals who witness deaths day in, day out. There seems to be a common pattern in what happens at the end of life. It happens to a person no matter what their religion or their culture. There are numerous reported cases of people seeing and speaking to people that are not present, people seeing relatives who they didn't even know were dead at the time, and it is definitely acknowledged that people can often, to some extent, choose the moment of their death (for example waiting for relatives to leave the room). People who specialise in end of life care know all of this. None of the observed facts are disputed. Personally one of the most compelling things I read was reports of alzheimers patients regaining lucidity and memories in the final days of life.

Obviously the meaning you choose to put on these things is quite a different thing. Some people will dismiss them as illusions created by the dying brain. But as I have said these occurrences, which are KNOWN to occur around the time of death, are the reason why every culture on the planet has some kind of theory about what happens after death. And how much is the increasing reluctance of our modern western culture to contemplate this possibility a result of the fact that fewer and fewer people come into direct contact with a person right at the end of their life?

And you know what. The other thing is, it doesn't really matter if these experiences are "real" or not (whatever meaning you want to put on "real"). They are real to the person experiencing them, and in the vast majority of cases they provide comfort at the very end of life, and you are advised to never attempt to contradict or reason with someone reporting such things. Even it is just a function of the dying brain, so what, if it is helpful and comforting? But I would raise this question - what possible evolutionary advantage could this give, when someone is on a one way ticket?

An hypothesis is a very different thing to a theory. Again....do you know the difference? If you did, you'd know why bringing up the multiverse & dark flow is somewhat irrelevant to the point I am making.

What I mean is that if there are things out there that humans are incapable of experiencing due to the limitations of the human consciousness, how exactly would you expect to see evidence of them?

I wouldn't. But that's literally no justification for believing in them anyway.

Try this:

In one cup are 10 non-existent marbles
In another cup are 10 marbles undetectable in anyway by humanity or science.

Tell me which is which, please.

I have read the "very interesting end of life experiences". I didn't find them that interesting. Actually, I found them ridiculous.

For example, there is acknowledgement that reports of seeing dead relatives are a clear sign that death is approaching, and the literature distinguishes these very clearly from the hallucinations associate with terminal agitation

An hallucination is experienced by the person having the hallucination and absolutely no one else. There is no possible way to decide what one type of hallucination is over any other - or even if there truly is an hallucination.

Seeing things that other people can't (dead Grandpa) is an hallucination & dying brains hallucinate.

Read the literature HettiePetal, and then go sit by the bed of a dying relative. Who am I or you to say these things are mere hallucinations. How do you know that the entire world you create around yourself is not a hallucination?

But I would raise this question - what possible evolutionary advantage could this give, when someone is on a one way ticket?

An advantage doesn't have to be "evolutionary" to be an advantage.

Brains produce chemicals to help us deal with pain. It's not exactly a reach that it would produce other effects to make the process of dying less unpleasant.

Lack of oxygen produces hallucination and other feelings. A brain that's dying begins to run short of....guess what?.....oxygen.

Which rather neatly brings us back to the OP actually. Which is that whose to say when I die the entire universe that I have hallucinated for myself will not just cease to exist?

Yes, yes, it's all being actively debated. And it is extremely interesting - honestly, I suggest you go and look into it further. I had no idea about most of this stuff until I started trying to prepare myself for my mum's death. When I feel ready I am going to read a lot more about it. Lack of oxygen does not even begin to explain these phenomena, really it doesn't.

I think that was quite unnecessary, don't you?

It pisses me off beyond belief that only superstitious people are allowed to have an opinion on death and dying. Where do you people get off, exactly?

Both my parents are gone, my son's father is gone - I sat by the bedside for two of those deaths. I still think that hallucinations are not indicative of spooky woo woo crap.

I don't think I can be bothered addressing your latest illogical ramblings. Solipsism has no application in reality. The fact, or otherwise, of it is irrelevant to your experience.

Bye.

Well I'm very sorry if I've upset you HettiePetal, it was certainly not intentional.

Really?

"Go and sit by the bedside of a dying relative"? That is emotional manipulation and it flourishes on these boards - usually the last bullet in the gun of someone who knows they've been beaten.

It fecks me off.

I have answered all your points to the best of my ability. I have read the stuff about end of life - I don't find it convincing. Neither do most scientists.

If new evidence emerges, I shall be fascinated. But I'm not going to sit here and go "Oooooh, how amazing" about people seeing their dead relatives moments before they die.

Are they reporting these miraculous sightings over the death rattle, by the way?

gaelicsheep, if this is a difficult subject at the moment then by all means put it aside for now, but really, the warning not to tell a dying person they are imagining it - as though we needed telling. Then the suggestion that only someone had seen a death would know these things is also a bit off.

The facts you speak of are not really facts are they. Since the really significant stuff happens inside people's heads.

Oh come on now. I am recently bereaved and would have left the thread quick smart if I was getting upset. If you had stated you yourself were bereaved I would not have made the comment that I did. I do not frequent these threads as a matter of course, and I don't think I will again, since even a thread like this turns out to have raw emotions bubbling under the surface of the most dispassionate sounding posts. We all deal with things in our own way, you in your way, me in mine. Enough said I think. No upset was intended on my part, truly. Take care of yourself.

I knew nothing at all about the dying process until very recently. I assumed others might be the same, obviously wrongly.

Forgive me for having opinions, and I shall disappear in the way that Hettie requested some time ago.

I don't have "raw emotions" bubbling under the surface. You didn't "upset" me, you annoyed me. And you are far, far from the only person who takes the line you did, by the way.

I am sorry you are recently bereaved, but that has no bearing on anything I have said to you. Death is pretty universal, and is not the preserve of those who are currently dealing with it.

Opinion is good - telling me to go and sit by the bedside of a dying person isn't an "opinion", now is it.

I am more than happy to continue talking to you if we keep the personal stuff out of it.

And once again, I apologise for that, I will admit that was me inadvertently allowing my emotions to get in the way of a dispassionate debate. I have not been on one of these threads before, and was not aware of the usual course of things.

The fact is that I was a total sceptic until my recent experience, which I am not going to go into here. And yes, perhaps I'm allowing myself to believe in the "supernatural" to help ease the pain. Maybe, but as I said earlier I'm not sure there is any harm in that, either for the dying or for the bereaved. I also don't happen to believe that consciousness continuing beyond our current experience - if it does - is supernatural or spooky, but that's by the by.

Really the point I have been trying to make is that given that a large percentage of the universe consists of "dark energy" and "dark matter" that scientists haven't even begun to explain, I (personally) think there is no basis on which to claim that any one scenario is more likely than any other. But that is merely my opinion.