Exactly what will happen upon my demise

[DoctorTwo]

You will have noticed the title is a statement not a question. What is certain to happen is you lot and all this will cease to exist.

I'm not trying to be mean, but that's just the way it is.

I don't think anyone should answer your stupid, pointless questions, Dione, until you take the trouble to answer the ones that have been put to you.

crescentmoon interesting ideas about crime and punishment. I've heard similar arguments on where atheists can get morals from. We don't require a source or justification, but can operate on what works.

If we didn't have laws and everyone just killed their neighbour and took their food, shelter etc than we'd all have to spend too much time defending ourselves to get anything done and we might be killed. This would be quite inconvenient.

To avoid that we created societies and rules. They are not holy rules and don't have to be built into the structure of the universe. They just have to (mostly) work.

On a separate note I did a quick google on thanking god for people/people getting better.

St. Anselm Parish Thanks god for the recovery of a parishioner

St. John the Baptist Parish Thanks god for what he has done for their community. That's after the hurricane wrecked the place.

Friar Michael is pleased that they got the church bells back and thanks god for that.

Lots more out there.

I wonder what would happen if I went and trolled a prayer thread, not that I would, I respect other people, just not their religion.

Did they thank god instead of thanking the people who helped or as well as Back?

In deterministic terms (and I am not convinced it's as clear cut as Prof Haggard suggests) insanity shouldn't be a mitigating circumstance either since it's still who you are right now.

However, I don't think an insanity plea is about excusing you because your brain chemistry made you do it so much as recognising that you are incapable of understanding that what you did was against the law. So punishing you to stop you doing it again would just not work in your case.

And if you kill because you are insane you are still locked up to protect others. Just in a different facility.

neuroscience does not have to equate to determinism. i would disagree with that - brain plasticity tells us we can learn and rewire all the time, meditation techniques have massive effects, CBT aims to help people learn new responses and behaviours in the face of old beliefs and thought patterns and reactions, etc.

for me it is very much not a case of soul or robot. i believe in a personality, i believe in values, i believe some strive for good and others don't, some people choose to live trying to help others, some people work hard to overcome difficult beginnings of abuse, others go on to abuse others etc. there is no need for a soul in this - we have highly complex brains, high level thinking, ability to learn, reflect, determine to change, decide our values, etc all without need to resort to a god.

it isn't 'the ghost in the machine' of dualism or utter determinism and in the same way as the nature/nurture 'debate' i'd say it's just a false dichotomy.

and on the subject of 'thanking god' - i was rewatching that 'tsunami: where was god?' documentary with a group (problem of evil at as level) and the muslims in indonesia were thanking god for testing them, thanking him for punishing them, thanking him for killing thousands of people as a warning to them and seeing god as having chosen them to have this warning at the expense of the lives of their friends and family.

it was painful to watch the level of ingrained dogma at work.

oh and of course it was a punishment for women wearing tight jeans and walking around with men who were not their husbands sickening really to use the death of thousands to reinforce your misogynistic agenda.

Yes, I'm not convinced that Prof Haggard is entirely correct either.

But I agree with you - the free will issue does throw up all sorts of ethical issues which need to be discussed. I don't think your can describe it as "double think" really - I've yet to come across any sensible person who thinks that it necessarily follows that we should excuse people for the things they do.

As you alluded to, we already take action against people who we know are not responsible for their crimes....people who have pleaded insanity. If none of us, ultimately, have any true responsibility for what we do, then what's the difference?

Although I do think we have some free will - but on what level and to what degree, I don't know. Interesting thing to discuss though.

Incidentally, a universe governed by an omniscient, omnipotent creator demolishes any chance of free will.

Sorry, that was to Crescent.

I think you're absolutely right, Numpty, about the brain rewiring itself all the time. I think our free will, such as it is, is born from that.

I haven't had a PM in days and I am no one's spokesperson Hettie. I am asking questions about points raised in posts.

Are you and others PMing "behind the scenes" Hettie? Is that why I am receiving so many personal attacks on this thread?

I can't see any posts attacking you Dione, unless you count asking questions. If you're interested, I haven't had any PMs either.

I have had no PMs for days, either.

Dione- please could you show me the personal attacks that have been made on you? If you are referring to my spambot comment, I apologise for it. I was driven to it by acute frustration- but that is no excuse. I will ask for it to be deleted if you like.

So you don't think that someone calling me a "twat" is a personal attack Doctor?

I said you were looking a bit like one.

Since you see nothing wrong in calling people "bigots" then ignoring their requests to c/p the posts that demonstrate this, I don't feel too bad about saying you look a bit of a twat.

I don't believe the whole "just asking questions" crap.

No - I rarely PM anyone. But then I am not pursuing some weird agenda.

I have no agenda beyond challenging negative generalizations about more than half of the population of the planet.

Do you have a problem with those who identify themselves as Jedi? It's equally valid as any other belief in a deity. At least the Jedi types have decent films not starring Charlton Hestonservices.

No, but I think it's only fair to point out that I've never met anyone who identifies as Jedi.

I have no problem with anyone's personal belief system. I have a problem with those who make sweeping, negative generalizations regarding people who do not share their belief. People are people. No group, race, gender, religion or ethnicity has a monopoly on intelligence, compassion, idiocy, rudeness or cruelty. I think the sooner we reach that realization, the better it will be for all of us.

I am happy to let people be people and believe what they want. So long as they don't demand social privileges because of that belief, or feel that they have the right to impose their beliefs on me and mine.

Dione - please either c/p the post where anyone demonstrates bigotry on this thread or apologise for saying it.

This is not a one off. You do this consistently on thread after thread - we're bigots &/or racists for criticising ideas.

This time, either back up your statement or acknowledge that you had no business making it.