Where do I go from here ?

[snowyowl70]

Long story but went to C of E primary school and at age approx 11 started to be more curious about faith and attended a welcoming Methodist church. In my teens got involved in beach missions and met very traditional evangelicals who didn't see women in leadership roles. Married one of the latter types and duly played the role of helper to my super spiritual husband who shortly after we started a family gave up on the Church thing largely. Result I struggled on my own with two young children going along to the same church fielding questions each week as to where he was - end result was I didn't go to Church at all as felt my husbands "backsliding" was somehow partly my fault and got fed up of making apologies for his absence. Then about 3 years ago my DD1 wanted to go to church so I readily took my kids (3 of them by now) along - again on my own. DH has been along infrequently and sort of got used to it just being me and the kids. Now DD1 at 18 has decided she cannot belong to an organisation where women are treated as inferior beings and should just be nice, stay at home wives/mothers . I have to agree with her that I am not happy about it and am now questioning whether I want my DD2 - age 8 to be brought up in that environment. So where do I go from here ? My faith has been sorely tested not least due to my DH having upset me terribly by being caught sending inappropriate texts to another women - I felt I kept my end of the bargain and now I am left feeling hurt by DH and religion but I feel my faith is part of me. How can I find a new church that won't expect me to have DH in tow each week, that will treat women as equal in Gods sight or am I just hoping to find something that isn't there ?? Sorry for the long post !

Dear snow I am so sorry that you have had these horrible blows to your self esteam.

You are special and wonderful whether your DH is in tow or not.

Your oldest DD is an adult and will make her own decisions but she may be encouraged if she sees you attending a church where your natural gifts and talents cane be used and appreciated.

If I were you I would find such a church and take your younger children along. I would invite DD to come iwth you and encourage her to find her faith for herself. Lots of Christians (like me) are feminists and haveno desire to be down trodden at all.

Personally I like the C of E, at it's best I like the style. but some are a bit dull and yes some will want to put you in your place to make the tea! Although the C of E does not have women bishops, it will soon, I feel sure.

Like wise traditional Baptist churches may have views on women but Baptist Unionb of Great Britian has a woman at its top!

I woudl read the website of any church yuo plan to visit and check first what they think about women. I got a church affiliated to FIEC (Fellowship of Independant Evangelical Churches). We do not have women elders or minitsres or allow women to preach the main Sunday service. I got involved with the church before I realised this! I love the peopel and they love me. I am involved in things and lead things (or head them up) as do many women in our church. I stay because I love the people but one day I will almost certinaly find another church.

Part of the story is to stay in churches that are rather backward looking and encourage them to see the potential in women and girls in leadership, but sometimes it is totally right that we do move on. The fact this is putting your 18 year old off church would sound a massive warning bell for me. I would (in your shoes) encourage her to help you find a suitabel church you can all be part of.

As far as yur Dh goes I am afriad this is between you both. I would want want to find out about the texts and I would (personal opinin) want to maybe get some counselling to get your marrriage back on track. I would encourage him to see you as an equal partner and because you married him believeing he would be strong Christian partner (I pressume) and he has not done that I would really encouage him to be a part of the new church you and your kids join. However if he does not I would accept that and would try and build your relationshop more around those things you do have in common, and would ensure that any question about why yuor husband does not come to chruch with you etc would be met with a warm smile and a solum 'You wil have to ask him about that, but I/we (you and your kids) are here today and I really liked the sermon.... flowers... coffee cake you made... solo you sung ... etc. people will soon learn you are your own wonderful person and if you act like this at home your husband might just fel intrigued to find out about this new church!

All the very best, you are amazing, three lovely children and a life of faithful service, time for you to enjoy being you a but more (IMHO). Bless you.

Your 18 year old daughter sounds the most sensible one in the family. Why do you want to indoctrinate your 8 year old/ wait until she is old enough to make up her own mind.

Christianity at its core is mysogynistic.
Even the more liberal churches have at their heart a male godhead.
Many pay lip service to female equality- many don't even bother.
It is possible to persue a spiritual path without resorting to any of the sexist Abrahamic religions. maybe you need to explore and read more expansively.

Thank you Italiangreyhound for your positive comments. msmiggins I think Christianity has its faults like all religions but I have no intention of brain washing any of my children - my DS age 15 chooses not to come and that's fine.

Yes but your 8 yo doesn't know any better. Give her a chance to make up her own mind,
You are convinced there is a god, but that's just your opinion- you may be wrong.

Yes, I may be wrong but is it not also wrong that I should have to not go to Church to keep her away ?? My DH indulges his obsession with cycling on a Sunday ( as well as various other days of the week) so if my 8 year old doesn't come with me then I have to stay at home too. She enjoys coming, has lots of friends there and will question things as they crop up and that's fine - I don't have any issues with people choosing their own religion or none but my choice is Christianity.

I wouldn't worry too much about DH not going with you if you attend a fairly liberal church. I go to a C of S and a lot of the people there are not accompanied by their wives/husbands.

cloutiedumpling - love the name !! First tried the delicacy as a student in Edinburgh !! Thank you for the comments - it doesn't worry me going without DH but it seems to bother other church folk who seem obsessed with pulling sad faces and saying what a shame it is he doesn't come !

I'd just take your 8 year old along with you. I have 3 DCs that I take to church with me and do see that I could be criticised of brainwashing them. On the other hand, an atheist who is very vocal about atheism in front of their kids could also be accused of brainwashing. Any accusations of brainwashing are probably unavoidable in most cases. Whether we are atheist or Christian, we all have to do what we think is best for our kids and that will usually mean exposing them to our beliefs.

but is it not also wrong that I should have to not go to Church to keep her away ??
No it's not wrong. If that's what it takes to keep her mind free and her judgement intact then its a small price to pay. you have your whole life to worship- in just s few years she will no longer be a child.

I could ask you is it right for you to be selfish enough to take her to church where she may be irrevesibly influenced by faith?
Don't underestimate the influence church has on the developing mind.
I am sure you could arrange for her to be cared for while you attend church.

msmiggins I am somewhat perplexed by your idea that I am brainwashing her and that I should give up going to church for what would be 28 years in total from DD1 reaching 18 to DD2 reaching 18 !! I have given up so much of me to my family due to lack of DH being willing to so basically I miss out on anything I want to do as the other 4 members of the family take priority over me. If I give up anything else then I will have disappeared altogether !!!!!

Snow you are totally right (IMHO) in wanting to share you faith with your children and in knowing that they will make up their own minds when they are older. The idea that your daughter will be irrevesibly influenced by faith is very alarmist and is maybe thinking that you will be part of a church where children will be given lots of negative ideas about themselves because of the church. It is true that some churches in teh past (and still today) can give people a negative view of themselves and this is totally wrong and to be resisted completely. But by saying that for that reason children cannot go to church is (IMHO) appaling. Faith is so important for life and can be a wondeful joy, your DD has friends and enjoys chruch and she has mum who udnertsands she may not wish to go to chruch or believe anything when she is older. Great combination.

Snow it sounds like there is some resentment in your marriage because your DH has not wanted to be part of famly life as you would like it. Can you build on the things you have together, maybe go cyling as a family one Saturday and then, if you can agree to it, go to church as a family one Sunday?

Having said this I would make it very clear at your new church, if you do change church, that people can be pleased to see you but you don't want any sad faces or questions when you go to church. A dear friend of mine, when asked if she had brought her husband to church used to say 'My husband is not a parcel I can't bring him anywhere!' or words to that affect!

In my church, the children, including my own, learn about different ways to be kind to everyone, irrespective of age, faith , culture, class etc etc. If that is how they are going to be "irreversibly influenced by faith" then bring it on.
For her last birthday when I asked my dd what she wanted as a present, she said "make sure you give some of my present money to the hungry children in Africa "

It sounds like a very difficult situation. It is always hard moving churches but being hard doesn't mean it is wrong. You need to find yourself in an environment where you can spiritually grow, if you aren't able to do that in your current church I would ask why.

A good first step would be to pray about it, both alone and if you feel comfortable with a close friend maybe talk and pray with them. I would visit a couple of local churches and see how you find them. Keep god at the centre of your decisions and you will find somewhere new.

I don't think you are indoctrinating your daughter. Everyone will impart their world view on to their children whether they intend to or not. I grew up in an atheist family and i would definitely say that had an influence on me but I was still in the end able to make my own decision and so will your daughter as your other children have.

Good luck with your search

I'm sorry you have been through all this, OP. It sounds like it's been a tough road.

There are plenty of churches out there who embrace women in leadership and come much more closely to the core of what Christianity is about in terms of equality, encouraging each person to develop their giftings, whatever gender they happen to be. I'd dispute msmiggins statement that Christianity is misogynistic at its core. It is probably the least so at its core, in fact, and is inherently freeing to women. The passages in Paul have been terribly mistranslated and twisted in order to control, and unfortunately led to churches like the one you belong to. Paul was affirming and supportive of women in leadership (Junia and Lydia, anyone?) and would be horrified of what has been carried on in his name. As for Jesus, his associations with women were scandalous at the time in their openness and mercy. Lovely.

I'd encourage you to look for somewhere that will build up your self esteem and show your children there can be another way that encourages and builds up women. I'm a Christian feminist, like Italian (I think Jesus is too)

I don't think you are indoctrinating your 8 year old, but I think you could actively search to find somewhere which will educate her in how women and men can be valued alike and can lead or not lead as they um...feel led.

I often get accused of indoctrinating my dc, but in fact I just love them so dearly I long for them to experience the freedom and joy of knowing Jesus, and I also encourage in them curiosity and intelligence. They know they are able to choose for themselves and are fully supported in doing so.

I hope you find something, OP. Re your marriage, it sounds very difficult. I don't know what to advise but these texts are sending out a red flag to me :(

So lets get this right- we indoctrinate our children with faith when they are young so they are then able to make up their own minds when they are adults.
Doesn't happen does it.

You don't see children bought up in the Jewish faith flocking to join the christian church, nor christian children joining the line to become muslims.

Bringing a child up in faith limits their capability to make determinations later in life.
Faith interferes with the developing mind, it skewes, limits forever influences that individual.
Extremely unfair to pollute a child's psyche.

MsMiggins - as parents do we not all want to expose our kids to what we believe to be good and true in the world? An atheist is just as likely as a person of faith to tell their kids about their beliefs. If we are to follow your argument, that would limit their capability to make determinations later in life, just as exposure to any religion would.

Athesim is not a position of faith.

I think the good news for you is that most Christian churches do not actively teach that women are second class citizens (whatever MrsM might wish to say on their underlying agenda). So it ought to be easy to find somewhere. Perhaps a church with a female minister as part of the ministry team? And in a church like that, you may also find much more tolerance that the whole family may not be churchgoers and that's fine. Locally to me, the places where you would find that approach would be C of E rather than non conformist, and not the evangelical wing, but of course this will vary depending on where you are.

As far as indoctrinating children goes, as an atheist myself I do think that children have to be brought up by their family, taking part in those activities that the family sincerely and honestly values. Which in this case includes Christianity, at least for her mother.

Lots of C of E and Methodist churches have female ministers and that might be a good place to start looking for a church that affirms women. My church has two female priests and two male lay ministers. We get a real mix of families from mum and dad both coming to church with the children, to families where dad is an atheist and doesn't come or is working shifts and mostly can't come, or families where there is no dad. All are welcome.

I didn't say that atheism was a position of faith, simply that an atheist was likely to share their beliefs with their kids and that, if we follow your argument, this limits the children in their development just as much as religion would.

mrsmiggins many people are brought up in a faith and reject it or are brought up in one faith and change religion.

cloutiedumpling - you compare an athiest " sharing their beliefs" in the same way as someone of faith would. It's not comparable. Athiesm is lack of faith so there is nothing to share.

Italiangreyhound- don't underestimate the difficilty of letting go of a faith or the emotional baggage that an individual is encumbered with when they are subject to childhood indoctrination.
Religion affects the hardwiring and cognition of a child. Even if thet individual chooses at an intellectual level to reject religion as an adult the emotional and cogitive processses are much harder to lose.
Far from limiting a child by having no faith it is the most respectful way we can ensure that a child enters adulthood free of the shackles of religious moulding.

Atheists come in many shapes and sizes. The BBC website has some good information www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/ here

Whoops, posted to early. I was trying to preview and failed.

www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/

Atheists come in many shapes and sizes as the BBC site shows.

It strikes me that atheists can be as fundamentalist as any religious group and I've debated with enough fundamentalist Christians to hear the sense of the elect who have the truth and the rest of humanity that is dangerously deceived.

It is sad that someone thinks that the way I have brought my children up is abusive. It is sad that someone thinks I've indoctrinated by children by exposing them to the love that I believe to be at the heart of my faith.