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Philosophy/religion

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Islam - What do you think?

371 replies

ChaCha · 26/06/2006 18:56

Hello everybody,

I've been posting on MN for years and have met some lovely people on here. I am a practising Muslim, have been for around 6 years and chose this way of life for myself after much soul searching.
I recently met up with some ladies from my PN group here and not an eyelid was batted about my headscarf or the obvious fact that I am a Muslim. We have been chatting online for a year and a half and it has never been an issue.
It shows me that we can live in a tolerant society and that our own beliefs do not need to be forced upon others. I have found the inner peace that I was looking for for so long and this has prompted meto ask the following:

  1. What makes you happy/content in life? What/Who do you turn to when you've had a really bad day? Do you often think about death and how does it effect your day to day life?

  2. What comes into mind when you see a woman wearing a headscarf and how do you view Islam?

My thoughts for the day. Thank you. Off to change nappy x

OP posts:
bloss · 29/06/2006 05:59

Message withdrawn

Gemmitygem · 29/06/2006 07:00

really interesting discussion..

I certainly don't agree with the French ban on headscarves in schools, because what is better, to have little Muslim girls in scarves studying alongside everyone else, or to force them out of the mainstream system.

However, I do think that the whole issue of covering up women's bodies is rooted in culture as much as religion, it seems a bit suspect to me that it's all about the woman exciting lust of the man and designed from a man's perspective, (like all major religions), and the problem is that it is not up to the individual: girls are pressured by their families to wear the hijab, and in those countries where Islamic law prevails, women don't have the choice.. so it is not God telling them to wear the scarf, it is the state and the police! That is where it becomes a problem for me.. when religious law is made into the law of the land for everyone. (stoning, wife-beating etc justified). It's not just Islam: any religion, Christianity, Judaism or whatever would be scary if enshrined (as it used to be) in daily law. That's why, thank God, we have secular laws and the respect of human rights as being the highest good (or at least that's the way it's supposed to work).

So the essence is, when I see a woman in a headscarf, I think 'you are probably a Muslim, either convert or by upbringing, and I respect your choice to cover up, but I hope you cover up because you want to, not because you were coerced into it as a 7 year old or you just did because everyone else in your family did'.

Though it's no different from the sort of judgement I'd make (secretly to myself) if I saw a little girl dressed in very tarty clothes. I would also make a judgement and think 'Have her parents dressed her like that? Haven't they thought what's best for her?'

it's an endless and very interesting discussion anyway...!

geekgrrl · 29/06/2006 07:11

ameli, do yo not shower daily then? I can safely say that my pubic hair is cleaner than the hair on my head because that only gets washed every other day. Doesn't mean I should shave my head though.
Plenty of countries where women don't shave their bodily hair. And they're no dirtier there than we are here.
Slug is right - it's part of oppression.

Gemmitygem · 29/06/2006 07:22

I totally agree on the shaving as oppression thing.

You've only to think of those awful Veet ads which ask whether your legs pass the 'tissue' test..

Last century is was the corset, now it's pubic waxing: and it's the beauty industry who pockets the difference!

Roshni · 29/06/2006 08:33

Body hair on men does not make them unhygenic, they are fine as they are. But on women, it is unhygenic. They have to modify themselves to be acceptable to men. And they way women have to dress to be acceptable in different societies reflects this ? get your tits out, I want them where I can see them all the time; put your tits away, or I can't be held responsible for what I do to you...

I agree with gemitygem ? the beauty industry pockets. Women aren't slave to men anymore, we are all slaves to our economy, as men are encouraged to have a back, sack and crack to be acceptable now!

I think as a society, we are going backwards on this issue...

fuzzywuzzy · 29/06/2006 08:50

Actually it does say in the quran that believing men and believing women must lower their gaze, I'll look it up and post the full verse if you like. (It'll take a while I have an idea which chapter it may be in but not too sure).

fuzzywuzzy · 29/06/2006 08:54

Roshni dunno what you exactly mean by your last statement. But both men and women are expected to shave their pubic hair in Islam nothing about women and not men it's pretty specific that both genders have to, and pairing of the nails too.

Roshni · 29/06/2006 09:04

Fuzzywuzzy, it's a bit confused, I know, but I was talking about hair removal (or not) in society (for aesthetic purposes), not religion.

But I would like to know ? why do men and women both have to remove their pubic hair in Islam?

stitch · 29/06/2006 09:10

i dont really know, but i rememeber mom telling me we had to remove pubic hair evry forty days, which sort of coincides with every menstrual cycle.

wheteher its for cleanliness or not, i dont know, but i personally dont like pubic hair on display. i think it looks unhygienic and just plain ucky. obviously a personal opinion, but i just really really hate it. icht.

Roshni · 29/06/2006 09:11

But why aren't we fine just as God made us?

bloss · 29/06/2006 09:26

Message withdrawn

slug · 29/06/2006 09:37

OK, so if believing men are supposed to lower their gaze (and I'm all for that piece of equality) then why do women also have to cover themselves to protect themselves from men's gaze? Is this just a tacit admission of the double standard? Or is it being realistic about men and how they think and behave?

Ameli, I's sorry you didn't like my friend's comments. He's one of those quiet thoughtful guys who was quite shocked by his own reactions. It made him think a lot about how women can be made invisible.

bloss · 29/06/2006 09:39

Message withdrawn

fuzzywuzzy · 29/06/2006 10:00

The hijaab is also supposed to indicate a woman is Muslim, and bar the bloke in Tescos (I think he was student and just riding high on end of exam euphoria) I would think most men wouldn't try and pick up a woman in Hijaab.

All arguments I've ever come across with regards hijaab, ie that it protects women from the gaze of men who do not adhere to Islamic teaching, and women are considered more vulnerable than men I would guess.

Anyway as I was saying all the arguments I have encountered about why women should wear hijaab, can probably argued for and against till one is blue in the face, but the reason I wear it, not because I'm afraid of being molested (although I have noticed to a lot of people I am invisible in my headscarf). I wear it because it is a law of God, having said that I would never ever dream of forcing any other woman to wear it, it takes a lot of courage to do so when one has never worn a hijaab before.

I don't feel oppressed by it, and most actually all families I have come across are usually very against their young unmarried girls wearing the hijaab, they feel any prospective husband will be put off as he can't see how pretty she really looks with her hair done etc.
My husband was annoyed he couldn't show me off to his friends, their wives are lovely and in comparison in my hijaab I must look plain. But I have told him my hijaab is part of the deal....

There are specific laws regarding clothing for men, ie a man cannot wear silk, or gold, he cannot wear his hair long either. A man must wear his trousers hitched up above his ankles (and sorry but the peddle pusher look on blokes is never going to make it as a fashion statement in my books), and wear the beard fist length...

The extent to which any man or woman follows these depends wholly on the indiviual ime.

Kelly1978 · 29/06/2006 10:08

@ chacha - so you aren't bald then!
I did guess there was hair under, it's jsut that I don't actually bother putting my hair up unless I'm going out, I prefer the feel of it loose. So it mine was always covered in public, it would be loose at home and I prob wouldn't even own a hair scrunchie!

Interesting about the pubic hair, never knew that. I agree with stitch actually - it is icky! I shave and it makes me feel cleaner and fresher.

Kelly1978 · 29/06/2006 10:11

why aren't men allowed to wear gold?

This thread is really fascinating, btw - thanks chacha!

geekgrrl · 29/06/2006 10:22

well, in my own personal experience etc., etc. - I have required more visual protection from men who do claim to adhere to islamic teaching than from those who don't.
I went to Egypt with my mum when I was 12 (!!) and could basically not go out of the hotel without being harrassed all the time. It was dreadful. In fact, at one hotel I was also being harrassed by a waiter - he'd follow me around, the creep. I was a child then, didn't even have boobs and certainly did not dress inappropriately or provocatively. I guess if it was a choice between living like that and draping a black sheet over myself, I'd go for the sheet.

spidermama · 29/06/2006 10:25

Stich ... You refer me to 'my' post of 1233 and say OUCH!

BUT .... that wasn't my post of 1233. Look again. It was speedymama's. Her views are far more, erm, forthright than mine on the subject.

Just thought I'd better clear that up.

geekgrrl · 29/06/2006 10:26

oh, and if it's for protection from the gazes on non-muslims, why are countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran the worst when it comes to demanding cover for their females? Surely they're not exactly likely to come across that many non-muslims there?

Gemmitygem · 29/06/2006 10:47

fine if it's individual choice but what about when you see it on tiny girls of 7 or 8? I'm sure they haven't completely made that decision on their own! I'm against them wearing the hijab just as I am against them wearing 'teeny bopper' clothes and miniskirts, because in each case somebody (be it a religion, a culture or a media) is appropriating little kids and forcing them into particular identities.

my prob isn't with individuals wanting to wear certain things because of their beliefs, of course that is between them and their God, but the problem comes when it is institutionalised into actual laws (e.g. in Iran and Saudi Arabia). People being forced to act in a certain way with the justification of religion, but actually it's humans making the laws and justifying it by saying God made them; to me, this seems so arrogant, to be able to say 'this is what God is, and this is what he wants for you, and you, and you: and if you don't do it you'll be punished!

bluejelly · 29/06/2006 11:14

I have spent quite a lot of time in Morocco, where I came to various conclusions about hijab etc

  • traditional clothes in morocco for men and women are very similar and very suitable for the climate-- can't really say that one is being oppressed whilst the other is not

  • These clothes are for outdoor use only-- moroccan women in particular spend a lot of time in large communal houses where they don't wear scarves/veils etc

  • Society is far less materialist and more family based

  • As a single working mother I can honestly envied the lives of many Moroccan women

Patttsy · 29/06/2006 11:40

why do you envy the lives of Moroccan women?

ameli · 29/06/2006 11:46

geekgirl,

yes i do shower every day, please dont give me any more details on the state of your pubic hair! lol

ameli · 29/06/2006 11:50

oh and by the way,

obviously the hair on your head will be cleaner than pubic hair. I wash all my body everyday.

bluejelly · 29/06/2006 11:56

Because motherhood is exalted, children too. Parenting is shared between the generations. Leaving your wife when pregnant (as I was) extremely frowned upon, almost unheard of.
Of course I realise that this is only one side of their lives but all the so-called freedoms of the west come at a price too.

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