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Philosophy/religion

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Praying

394 replies

technodad · 13/06/2013 18:58

I know this has been discussed as part of other threads before, but the recent news articles discussing the fact that "everyone" is praying for Nelson Mandela has got me thinking about it again.

Why do people pray?

Clearly there are many people across the world who pray, from the rich Monarchy, to the African child dying from Malaria. Some people pray that they will get a parking space close to the supermarket, others that their daddy won't abuse them, and some that they will survive the night. Yet, sadly, children are still abused, and die, whilst fortunate people like me don't have to walk far to the shops.

So, since it is evident that if prayer does work, then it doesn't work in the way people think it should, then why do people do it. Is it:

a) Because people think it does work in a simple "ask and you shall get" sort of way, even though they see poor African children on TV breathing their last breath, which provides overwhelming evidence that it doesn't? (these people can't all be uneducated and stupid, so why think it?)

b) Because the act of praying and belief gives them an inner strength to continue with life despite it's hardships and they genuinely don't believe it will work (this seems a contradiction to me)?

c) Because people don't think about it in a conscious way and the un-thinking habit produces a reduction in stress (like clicking the end of a pen, or biting ones finger nails)?

d) I don't know what else? any other thoughts?

Also, what are people praying for with Mandela? Do they want him to survive for ever (they seem to)? Or are they praying that he will pass peacefully to "heaven" when he does finally pass? Since he is regarded as such a saviour, then surely he is guaranteed a pain free route and pride of place, so why does everyone need bother?

I would be interested in the views of any faith, or those of none equally.

Techno

OP posts:
MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik · 16/06/2013 11:19

Thanks yams. Smile

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 11:20

Are you saying you are trying to put people off Christianity?

It's more complicated than that, Yam.

I don't care if dear old Mrs Smith who runs church jumble sales and makes cakes for the vicar believes in Jesus or not. If that's all religion represented, then I wouldn't care.

But "faith" - belief in something without evidence, is directly responsible for daily acts of terrorism all over the world. And it's the "faith" of Mrs Smith that provides cover for the "faith" of nutcases - because it implies that there's something good about faith. There isn't - and it is absolutely not a virtue.

yamsareyammy · 16/06/2013 11:21

Ellie, if you are saying everyone in the uk is a Christian, what about you and technodad? I am confused again Smile

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 11:22

For me, I just wanted it clear that Christians are not of unsound mind

I'm not trying to say you're all insane, Yam! Of course I don't think that.

But you were the ones divorcing yourselves from logic - I was trying to show that by doing that you're demonstrating that your faith is unreasonable.

And I agree with you Wink

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 11:23

Ellie, if you are saying everyone in the uk is a Christian, what about you and technodad? I am confused again

I am on the verge of becoming annoyed with you!

NOT NOW! Historically.

yamsareyammy · 16/06/2013 11:24

So are you trying to put off potential nutcases?

I would have thought that all the Mrs Smiths are just has horrifed, more so actually, in the daily acts of terrorism done under "Christianity" than you.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik · 16/06/2013 11:24

Btw, don't really want to get into the medieval history debate but I agree with ellie, atheism was exceptionally rare - and I don't think people even had a concept of believing in nothing really. People who didn't believe in God in the 'right' way were all considered heretics - so Muslims and Jewish people and even Christians who didn't quite understand the doctrines properly, were all seen as heretics. The Church really wasn't very good on valuing difference!

I think England was particularly bad because England expelled or massacred its Jewish population early on, so there was really very, very little alternative to Christianity. Sad

MissAnnersley · 16/06/2013 11:24

Lol at the idea of Gandhi being nice about bits of the bible.

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 11:25

This country is not a Christian one anymore. It certainly used to be though - and when it was it was a hell hole.

I have to go and decorate my kitchen now.

As usual, you have been a lovely (but frustrating) person to talk to. Enjoy your Sunday Thanks

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 11:27

Lol at the idea of Gandhi being nice about bits of the bible

LOL at a Hindu being inspired to greatness by the Bible.

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 11:28

I would have thought that all the Mrs Smiths are just has horrifed, more so actually, in the daily acts of terrorism done under "Christianity" than you

I wouldn't bet on that, actually.

But that's not the point.

BackOnlyBriefly · 16/06/2013 11:30

niminypiminy As you see Italiangreyhound is one of the many who admits to sometimes praying for people to be healed. Instead of accusing the atheists here of making stuff up perhaps you could debate it with the other christians and sort out which of you is doing it wrong. Clearly only one of you has a relationship with god. All those being told different things by 'god' are actually imagining it (or having a relationship with the devil).

Italiangreyhound I don't doubt that you would really deeply wish the person to be healed, but if you actually think that is possible - that it has happened even once in the history of the world - then you open yourself up to all the questions that have been asked about why does it not happen every time. You could just about make a case for never interfering, but there can be no sensible explanation for god healing sometimes, but not others.

Still catching up with this thread. More later.

yamsareyammy · 16/06/2013 11:37

Sorry Ellie, didnt mean to wind you up.

But it is not true historically either.
How could it ever be.
That is impossible.

To me, there is nothing new under the sun.
There is no utter way that they were all Christians.
Even if a lot called themselves Christians. And I presume that not all people that call themselves Christians are Christians.

people can call themselves anything.

There are verses in the bible about wolves in sheeps clothing.

wow, I can see how you and others can get confused by this.

Matthew 7 v 15 - 20

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, not can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.

'Not everyone who says to me "Lord ,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father on heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?" Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you ; go away from me you evildoers".

yamsareyammy · 16/06/2013 11:39

Thanks Ellie. Have a nice day.

BackOnlyBriefly · 16/06/2013 11:45

zulubump you said When I read the Bible it inspires me to live for what is true and right.

Which bible was that? Did you perhaps just read half a dozen verses from the NT? If so you should read the rest. It's depraved and sick and praises murder and rape.

yamsareyammy · 16/06/2013 12:26

www.gty.org.uk/Resources/Questions/QA160

The link lists lots of prayers that God does not answer, or even listen to on occasions.
Didnt realise there were so many reasons as that.
No wonder I was somewhat confused on the whole issue.

BackOnlyBriefly · 16/06/2013 12:34

Italiangreyhound You said the Bible has been used to condone slavery, yet Christians were at the forefront of the move to abolish it

The bible certainly does condone slavery. It may have invented the idea of inferior races who are born slaves, but can you remind me of the basis for the last part? There may be one, but nothing springs to mind.

Of course many of those involved in abolishing slavery may have been christians, but that's not the same thing is it. If I were to say that many German soldiers in ww2 were Christian then posters would say "Yes, but they just happened to be Christians. They were not fighting for Christianity"

MissAnnersley · 16/06/2013 12:40

I have not stated once nor do I believe that Gandhi was inspired to greatness by the bible. I simply stated that he had found a particular part of the new testament inspiring and that I had read somewhere that he had been less than impressed with the old testament.

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 13:00

Yeah, right. You were trying to contradict my response to a poster who WAS claiming that Gandhi was inspired to greatness by the Bible.

EllieArroway · 16/06/2013 13:05

Back Oh, good point!

Which bit of the Bible did the slavery-abolishing Christians quote when making their stand?

They didn't.....there is no bit they could quote. Which suggests (pretty much proves) that it was their humanity NOT their Christianity that inspired them.

Really, really good point that. I have a brain crush on you, Back - you are always so completely right :)

technodad · 16/06/2013 13:25

Zulu & Italian

Have you read my message at 11:08. Do you have a response?

OP posts:
MissAnnersley · 16/06/2013 14:01

Not really Ellie. I read what you had posted and remembered something I had read. That's all.

Italiangreyhound · 16/06/2013 14:03

technodad I am posting from my phone so aplogies if it does come out right! I believe god made the world I mean universe but usually say world so if o say worked later I mean universe! It was perfect. We were given free will and the world got spoilt a bit. It is fallen. Dies that answer you 11.08 question?

Italiangreyhound · 16/06/2013 14:08

Ellie are you saying me and all Christians are monsters? Just looking for clarification. The idea that all the people in the Uk England Britain in the last were Christian is crazy. Bring s Christian is being a follower of Chris not being born in a certain country where you have no option of being anything other than Christian.

Italiangreyhound · 16/06/2013 14:17

Back the references to slavery in the bible are in avert different cultural context to slavery as it happened in the 18th century and hoe it happens now. I think it talks about an utterly different time. I interpret the Bible not to be taken literally but more the story in the old testament of people's journey with God. I don't have a lot of evidence for this but O think that taking each other's land and peoples may have been the way people lived thousands of years ago. It is utterly wrong that the bible was used to justify slavery. I think you would be surprised to find lots of Christians. Myself included would share your abhorrce of the evils of this world.

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