Praying

[technodad]

I know this has been discussed as part of other threads before, but the recent news articles discussing the fact that "everyone" is praying for Nelson Mandela has got me thinking about it again.

Why do people pray?

Clearly there are many people across the world who pray, from the rich Monarchy, to the African child dying from Malaria. Some people pray that they will get a parking space close to the supermarket, others that their daddy won't abuse them, and some that they will survive the night. Yet, sadly, children are still abused, and die, whilst fortunate people like me don't have to walk far to the shops.

So, since it is evident that if prayer does work, then it doesn't work in the way people think it should, then why do people do it. Is it:

a) Because people think it does work in a simple "ask and you shall get" sort of way, even though they see poor African children on TV breathing their last breath, which provides overwhelming evidence that it doesn't? (these people can't all be uneducated and stupid, so why think it?)

b) Because the act of praying and belief gives them an inner strength to continue with life despite it's hardships and they genuinely don't believe it will work (this seems a contradiction to me)?

c) Because people don't think about it in a conscious way and the un-thinking habit produces a reduction in stress (like clicking the end of a pen, or biting ones finger nails)?

d) I don't know what else? any other thoughts?

Also, what are people praying for with Mandela? Do they want him to survive for ever (they seem to)? Or are they praying that he will pass peacefully to "heaven" when he does finally pass? Since he is regarded as such a saviour, then surely he is guaranteed a pain free route and pride of place, so why does everyone need bother?

I would be interested in the views of any faith, or those of none equally.

Techno

Hi technodad - Happy father's day. If I may reply to your Sun 16-Jun-13 08:12:47 post. No, rape isn't a good thing. Lots of things in life are bad and tyhere is lots of suffering but there is beauty and goodness in the world and often in unexplected places. Lots of people in the majrity world where there is less material stuff have lives worth living (based on what I have seen and read) not everyone thinks life is shit though clearly some people's lives are terirble. My reference to the opiate of the peopel reference is that it seems for some people who do not believe in religion or God then blaming 'God' is an opiate! As Zulu points out religion or God has led or helped people to do amazing things in standing up to those in power (think Liberation theology in Latin America). But for some 'religion' is something that provides a way to both not believe in God and to blame God but ultimately I am asking what are we, the human race, doing about the ills of the world, solving them or contributing to them. I think you will agree, it is a mixed picture. You said "... but the fact that you all love the utter bastard." Do you see what I mean about it sounding a bit angry?

Also you said So god kills the African baby with aids because he is a sinner? No, I don't believe he does. We do, we the society that set up a very cruel unfair system that means the world's whealth is unevenly distributed . What are 'we'going to do about it (genuine question).

Africans with AIDS ar probably like most people, some have faith some do not. Aids is a terrible disease, like cancer and all the others. Disease is the result of a fallen world (not perfect) so I don't think God is striking down individual children.

yamsareyammy thanks.

Ellie You said *It might be the joy of your life, but it's also responsible for Nigerian children being tortured as witches by their own parents. I agree wholelly with you that is utterly abhorent. I cannot explain when religious people along with nonreligiouos people (Mao for example) do terrible things or use religion for a cloak or claim religion as a reason. You must recognise that this is a small minority of people and not representative.

I am not terrified by the world logic, I used the docitonary on line to show that logic can be a part of reason.

OK Ellie if it offends you I will try not say that I think athiests are angry with God. I really do not want you to be offended or upset by words. I was responding to what I see in the words written about God. It feels heated and angry and upset but I know you don't believe in God so you can't be upset with God. I know that logically. See I am not afraid of logic.

Yes, Ellie the Bile has been used to condone slavert, yet Christians were at the forfront of the move to abolish slavery. It's a mixed up old world we live in.

I use logic for some things but not all things, some things aren't things that have a staright forward answer all the time. Like human love, it is not always logical but we love it!

Can I also again explain that all of us Christians here will be saying different things we believe so we don't all agree with each other and often may make suprised faces at what each other says! Just so we do not all get tarred with the same brush!

I can't read any more - only got up to 9.15 - I am off to church. Bye for now will read more later.

technodad, I think I said that, no, I dont think you will ever get 2 Christians to totally agree.
I think I covered this point upthread.
Actually I think I may have wrote the post, and then decided not to post it.

No, I dont think there are 2 Christians that totally agree with wach other.
The bible is too big and too complicated for that.
God made it that way, so that is God's problem.

Personally speaking yammy I actually think it's our problem.

Ellie, can I ask for you, what is it that keeps driving you towards the whole subject?

I think it's time for religion to pack it's bags and feck off. It's done enough damage to our species. We don't need it & it hurts people.

Some of us should be willing to enter these discussions because, believe it or not, some people do eventually come to their senses. And the more people that do that, the better.

Oh no, sometimes I put things firmly in Gods court! I cant think that he can expect Christians to work it all out. I consider you and I and other posters on here intelligent. But I look around at other Christians in my area, and think no way are they going to be able to grasp everything in the bible. That is impossible. And because God does not set us all up to fail in that regard, the bible muct have been deliberately made that way.

I can understand where you are coming from Ellie.

I don't think I understand what you mean yammy.

The problem is that none of us really know what the African child dying of Aids is thinking. It's all too hypothetical. We can only look at our own lives and those of people we know and judge whether faith is a good influence or not. I can't make my decision on whether to trust God on what is happening to an African child whose circumstances I have no idea about. If you really want to know what Africans dying of Aids think of God you really need to ask them.

The minister at our church worked for a while in South Africa with people living in shanty towns in terrible poverty. He said they had an amazing sense of their freedom in Christ and were much more joyful in praising Him than we are in our western world of luxury! My mind boggles at how that works. But I believe it to be true.

Italian

I am not offended by anything you say - I don't get offended. But accusing atheists of being angry at a being they don't believe in is a stupid thing to say. I would think you wouldn't want to carry on saying stupid things would you?

Regarding slavery:

Christians were responsible (in the Western world in relatively recent history) for enslaving people. When challenged, they used the Bible as justification. Not just a few Christians - lots of them. Yahweh is perfectly fine with slavery he says as much, quite clearly.

Christians were also responsible for getting rid of it - this is true. But, prior to the enlightenment, Christians were responsible for everything since everyone was a Christian.....for much of British history, it was a crime not to be a Christian. So every charity, every hospital, every school was opened by Christians. Because EVERYONE was a Christian.

Guess what that also means? That every murder, every piece of injustice, every rape, every act of child abuse was carried out by......? You guessed it - CHRISTIANS!

So if you're all going to crow about the decent things done by Christians, then step up to the plate and accept responsibility for the shit things too.

Nothing, but nothing, about Christianity makes anyone a good person by default. Properly applied, it makes monsters of people. It's only when you ignore most of it's teachings that you start to become a half-decent person.

Which bit dont you understand MissAnnersley?

I disagree Ellie. When I read the Bible it inspires me to live for what is true and right. And I think people like Ghandi and Martin Luther were inspired by the Bible to fight an incredible fight for justice, but remaining loving at the same time. That is a true example of what God wants for us. Many many Christians have got is wrong in the past and still do, but that is not reason enough for me to throw the whole thing out. When I look around at the people in my church and the good they do for each other and the community I think we would be much the worse off without it. I know this is not the case for all churches. But I'm not going abandon something good in my life because the other churches aren't perfect. It's like throwing marriage out altogether because in some cases it makes people miserable.

By the way - sticking the term "I believe...." at the beginning of a sentence does not suddenly a) give the sentence veracity or b) mean it automatically makes sense.

I believe the moon is made of Gorgonzola.

See? Doesn't work.

I very much doubt you've actually read the Bible all the way through, then Zulu.

I have.

And I think people like Ghandi and Martin Luther were inspired by the Bible to fight an incredible fight for justice, but remaining loving at the same time

Er...Ghandi was not inspired by the Bible. For goodness sake.

I am not terrified by the world logic, I used the docitonary on line to show that logic can be a part of reason

I never suggested that it wasn't. But reason is an application of logic - if something is illogical, then, by definition it is unreasonable.

God is illogical - certainly the way its defined by Christianity (with all the omnis) so it's unreasonable to believe such a being exists. Which is precisely why I don't.

Ellie.
slavery. I know you have posted to Italian, so I hope you dont mind me answering too.
slavery. I think when I read the bible when I was younger, that is one of the things about it that shocked me the most.
I read it as, no it doesnt go against slavery, it acepts it. Which shocked me.
But it does say something along the lines of that slaves are supposed to obey their masters and be nice, and that masters are supposed to be nice to slaves[I am pretty sure that you know the bible better than nme on this point Ellie].

I think, and this is very much fwiw, that Jesus did not come onto this earth to be political. [which is why I get cross with religious leaders who enter the political debates]. I dont think many Christians are supposed to debate politics per se. Their time is suppoed to be taken up on the whole, sticking to peace, justice etc.
Obviously there is an overlap, but even for Jesus, that does not seem to have been his mission.

You are wrong about "everyone was a Christian"
Wrong by a country mile.
That will and never has been remotely true.

And it's Gandhi, by the way. I spelled it wrong too.

Ellie, have you changed your word from rational to reason somewhere along the line?

Certain parts of the bible inspired ghandi, particularly Christ's sermon on the mount. I have read he did not enjoy the old testament.

You are wrong about "everyone was a Christian
Wrong by a country mile
That will and never has been remotely true

In Britain? In the era we're talking about? It most definitely is. I have an MA in Medieval History, Yam - trust me, it's true.

There was the odd atheist around - but that was exceptionally rare.

Of course, it depends how far back you go - but Christianity was in charge (and not in a particularly nice way) for the last 14/15 hundred years.

Zulu - The problem is that none of us really know what the African child dying of Aids is thinking. It's all too hypothetical. We can only look at our own lives and those of people we know and judge whether faith is a good influence or not. I can't make my decision on whether to trust God on what is happening to an African child whose circumstances I have no idea about. If you really want to know what Africans dying of Aids think of God you really need to ask them.

Oh come on, grow up! Are you really saying that you can't possibly have a reasoned guess at what a young child dying of aids might think. My guess is that he/she will be thinking "why me, what have I done, please, please please someone help me". Your response shows that you are not willing to let yourself think about it. Maybe because if you think about it long enough, you will realise that your faith will crumble. Best to just spout some crap you read in an old book written my humans and changed again and again.

Italian - Do you see what I mean about it sounding a bit angry?

I think you see this as being angry, because you don't understand what I am trying to say.

I am not angry with god, because god doesn't exist. When I call god a bastard, I do so to explain what any reasonable person who does believe in gods existance should think about him.

I ask myself why there are not massive "churches" of people who believe in god, but who gather together to all share their common hatred for all the bad things in the world, just like the unions did against Thatcher. The reality is, that once people get to the point of hating god, it is only a tiny little leap to get to the facts, that god doesn't exist. It is society and chaos theory which causes the problems.

you also say - Africans with AIDS ar probably like most people, some have faith some do not. Aids is a terrible disease, like cancer and all the others. Disease is the result of a fallen world (not perfect) so I don't think God is striking down individual children.

Maybe god is not striking individual children down, but god is choosing not to save them. God made the imperfect world (presumably on purpose). So if we are gods children whom he loves, then why does he create an imperfect world that can kill us, even if we, or our parents have not sinned, whilst saving those who have. As a parent, if I left knives around the house for my children to play with and one died, I would go to jail for man slaughter (rightly so). Why are no christians putting god on trial and holding him responsible for putting his children in danger and allowing them to die. Oh, I forgot, we love and trust him and don't question what he is doing, because we are unthinking and nieve.

Ellie, post 10.33am
Are you saying you are trying to put people off Christianity?

For me, prayer is a formalized way for me to think about what I'm worried about. I believe God is there, but I believe he already knows everything, so the communication is for me really. It's like when you get a small child to tell you things - you might well already know that this is a car and that is a dog (!), or that they did indeed break the vase, but you teach them to tell you and that way they learn to be more aware of themselves as people.

I think prayer does work, but not as a request system, as a mental discipline that keeps you aware of yourself.

Oh, I see - so even an Hindu is secretly inspired by Christianity . We could all pick out the odd part of the Bible that sounds nice - so long as we pretend the disgusting bits (and I'm talking NT) don't exist.

Gandhi believed in bringing the religions together. Being nice about bits of the Bible was probably part of that.

Ellie, have you changed your word from rational to reason somewhere along the line?

Erm...they all amount to the same thing!

Rationality means having sound judgement. Sound judgement relies on reason. Reason relies on logic.

Seriously - the things you lot try to pick me up on!

You cannot be rational if you ignore logic.
Something cannot be reasonable if it ignores logic.

I like your answer Malenky.

Ellie, I am not personally trying to pick you up on it.
For me, I just wanted it clear that Christians are not of unsound mind.
Which to me is what I thought you might be trying to say.

I have got lost on all the rational/logic/reason sentences.