Praying

[technodad]

I know this has been discussed as part of other threads before, but the recent news articles discussing the fact that "everyone" is praying for Nelson Mandela has got me thinking about it again.

Why do people pray?

Clearly there are many people across the world who pray, from the rich Monarchy, to the African child dying from Malaria. Some people pray that they will get a parking space close to the supermarket, others that their daddy won't abuse them, and some that they will survive the night. Yet, sadly, children are still abused, and die, whilst fortunate people like me don't have to walk far to the shops.

So, since it is evident that if prayer does work, then it doesn't work in the way people think it should, then why do people do it. Is it:

a) Because people think it does work in a simple "ask and you shall get" sort of way, even though they see poor African children on TV breathing their last breath, which provides overwhelming evidence that it doesn't? (these people can't all be uneducated and stupid, so why think it?)

b) Because the act of praying and belief gives them an inner strength to continue with life despite it's hardships and they genuinely don't believe it will work (this seems a contradiction to me)?

c) Because people don't think about it in a conscious way and the un-thinking habit produces a reduction in stress (like clicking the end of a pen, or biting ones finger nails)?

d) I don't know what else? any other thoughts?

Also, what are people praying for with Mandela? Do they want him to survive for ever (they seem to)? Or are they praying that he will pass peacefully to "heaven" when he does finally pass? Since he is regarded as such a saviour, then surely he is guaranteed a pain free route and pride of place, so why does everyone need bother?

I would be interested in the views of any faith, or those of none equally.

Techno

Er, no...I thought what I said was very clear:

Properly applied, it makes monsters of people. It's only when you ignore most of it's teachings that you start to become a half-decent person

You ignore most of what the Bible teaches. You don't know that's what you do because you have not read the whole Bible & you rely entirely on the nice bits that the vicar reads out on Sundays.

If you lived the way the Bible wants you to, you'd be a monster. And if you took Jesus's advice to the letter, your life would be unbearable.

And I'm not quite sure why you get to judge who is/isn't a Christian. That's a No True Scotsman fallacy. You don't get to excuse Christianity from it's horrors by feebly pretending that anyone who behaved in a way you don't wasn't a real Christian. Sorry about that.

Oh - and "it talks about an utterly different time".

And? At what point in history do you think it's ever been acceptable for one human being to own another?

Do you think God didn't really condone it then? So it's yet another thing the Bible gets wrong - like it's attitude to rape, women, children, genocide, murder & sacrifice.

For something that's supposed to be so holy, it gets a lot of things wrong, doesn't it?

Who gets to decide who is Christian? You, Ellie?

Who gets to decide who is Christian? You, Ellie?

How about the individual person?

It is never right to own another person. It never has been. I can't explain the bible's references of slavery. I simply said it refers to a different time. Maybe in a diffeent time people acted differently. Jan't democracy built on the society of the ancient Greeks, they had slaves. Yet no one would noe suggest throwing out democracy because of it. I din't know what God thinks or why I trust that he is loving. That us something I personally believe I have experienced.

The individual person deciding. How does that work? I say it so it is do. Without fulfilling any criteria? How about I want to proclaim myself a member of all world religions and speak for them simultaneously ( I don't) is that ok, does that work? Now who is abandoning rationality?

It's not about how people acted - yes, clearly they acted differently then. You could say that about anything.

It's about exactly why your God not only thinks it's OK, but gives specific rules about how and under what circumstance you may brand and strike your slave.

If he wanted to say something about slavery, why not: "Please don't do that. Employ people as servants, but you may not own them".

I thought free will was a precious gift? Not for slaves apparently

Now who is abandoning rationality?

Well, not me. At least I know what the word means.

How about I want to proclaim myself a member of all world religions and speak for them simultaneously ( I don't) is that ok, does that work?

I've no idea - but I expect you could. All religions are made up fairytales anyway, just make up another that incorporates all the current religions. It's no more stupid than the one you currently subscribe to.

OK - so lets look at your attempt at logic here.

The individual doesn't decide whether they are a Christian or not. Right? So, it's a judgement other people make based on their behaviour?

Well - let's take me:

I don't lie
I don't steal
I don't commit adultery
I don't murder or hurt people
I take care of my family
I give what I can to charity
I have volunteered over the years for a few charities (one in particular)
I've never broken a single one of the 10 Commandments (not even working on a Sunday, unless you count decorating)

Holy crap - I am a superb Christian!

Except I'm not - because I don't buy into a ridiculous and disgusting doctrine that demands I worship a bloody corpse.

You, however, do. So you are a Christian.

So it's not actually behaviour that marks someone out as a Christian - it's their beliefs. And who are you to tell someone what they do/don't believe?

I don't know who in their right mind would take the Bible literally. It is not a very usual Christian concept to do so. Biblical literalists annoy me for the poor theology and bad historical knowledge, as much as anything else, but I think if you want to argue that Christians would be terrible people if they took the Bible literally, you should acknowledge that for most of Christian history no-one had the slightest intention of doing that anyway.

Are setting our your fb for what you think a Christian is aellie? I assume you know it is not about keeping rules.

Sorry CV Ellie

Erm, no. I would be willing to accept an argument that today most people don't take the Bible literally. But for most of it's history? No way.

At the risk of repeating myself - where do you think Christians got their justification for keeping slaves from? Their misogynistic practices? Their burning of people at the stake? Their preaching of hellfire and damnation? And, until Darwin, most Christians took Genesis literally.

You're wrong. Sorry.

Italian - I believe god made the world I mean universe but usually say world so if o say worked later I mean universe! It was perfect. We were given free will and the world got spoilt a bit. It is fallen. Dies that answer you 11.08 question?

It is AN answer, but not a very good one that would stack up to any analysis that might fool anyone over the age of 8 years old. You say that god made the universe (world) and that it was perfect. You go on to say that "free will" caused it to be spoilt, i.e. humans spoilt it.

Since Malaria (the virus spread by mosquitos), has been on this earth since before humans existed (indisputable fact), and used to infect our genetic predecessors (indisputable fact), please can you explain how human "free will" caused Malaria, malaria being the biggest killers of humans, period. The world was "fallen" before humans existed (indisputable fact).

This is the problem, you write like you are discussing facts, but you (or who ever has taught you this tripe) are just making it up as you go along. The sad thing is, you base your life on this crap.

There was another part of the post at 11:08 which you have not address which is re-writen below for ease of you locating it:

Italian said - Do you see what I mean about it sounding a bit angry?

I think you see this as being angry, because you don't understand what I am trying to say.

I am not angry with god, because god doesn't exist. When I call god a bastard, I do so to explain what any reasonable person who does believe in gods existance should think about him.

I ask myself why there are not massive "churches" of people who believe in god, but who gather together to all share their common hatred for all the bad things in the world, just like the unions did against Thatcher. The reality is, that once people get to the point of hating god, it is only a tiny little leap to get to the facts, that god doesn't exist. It is society and chaos theory which causes the problems.

Italian

There are 33,000 different denominations of Christianity. If you lot can't even make up your mind what a "real" Christian is meant to be, how am I supposed to know?

If someone tells me they are a Christian, that's good enough for me. One interpretation of a piece of fiction is as valid as any other.

Also - I might point out, that when Richard Dawkins sponsored a poll to find out what people who professed to being Christians on the census actually believed, it was discovered that very, very few of them believed that Jesus was their saviour etc. When he pointed out that this meant they probably weren't Christians in any meaningful way, he was told very loudly that it's up to individuals to decide whether they call themselves Christians or not. Christians got very cross with him.

But you've decided that it's irrational for individual people to make that decision for themselves. Well, perhaps you'd like to tell your fellow Christians that, eh?

I agree with Ellie that the only definition of a Christian is someone who defines him/herself as such.

There are such variances in Christian belief, and not just with regards to which of the bible stories are metaphors and which are to be taken literally, but about the really basic stuff as well. Such as what/who is god, what/who was Jesus and what is heaven. Some people do literally believe god to be a male entity, some believe god to be genderless and not to be an entity that we would recognise, and that is before you get to considerations of whether the holy trinity is one, two or three separate entities. Likewise, there is fundamental disagreement over whether Jesus was a mortal or immortal being. Whether he was the son of god or whether he was god in mortal form. And with heaven, some people hold a firm belief that it is actually a place where you go after you die, and some people characterise it as just a metaphor for separation from god.

The reason for this is that there is no absolute truth. Everyone's view of Christianity is just that - their own personal interpretation. They may use this interpretation to found their own moral code, but it is not a moral code that carries any greater weight, or has any greater force behind it than the views of people of other faiths, or the views of people who have no belief in a divine being.

This, for me, is why many atheists at angry not at god, but at the idea of god. Because it holds up the beliefs of a group of people as being 'better' or more correct than people who do not share those beliefs, and because those beliefs are allowed to govern and intrude upon the lives of people who do not share them.

Since Malaria (the virus spread by mosquitos), has been on this earth since before humans existed (indisputable fact), and used to infect our genetic predecessors (indisputable fact), please can you explain how human "free will" caused Malaria, malaria being the biggest killers of humans, period. The world was "fallen" before humans existed (indisputable fact)

Ooooh. Good point! And I expect mammals were getting cancer too!

Have a brain crush on you now too, Techno

Thistle Well said.

Italian

I am getting crosser with you than I normally would. Usually you and I can discuss things without getting snarky. I'd like to go back to that. Today is my fault - I think it's PMT combined with guilt that I'm not decorating my kitchen as I should.

Everything I've said I stand by - but I could have been a bit nicer. Accept my apologies.

Will withdraw until I can engage as a nicer human being.

And our ape descendants likely killed each other over food or a mate too.

The idea that "free will" caused all of the wrongs in the world is utter utter unsupportable bollox.

Actually Ellie we might have a lot in common aside from religion. (Smile)

m.guardian.co.uk/science/2003/oct/23/dinosaurs.science

Look - dinosaurs got cancer millions and millions of years before humans even existed!

techno the angels fell first so before people. I think God intended the world to contain these bad things. Millions are Christians. Do we all have the intellect of 8 year olds. Christians would not form churches to be angry ay God. It is just too preposterous I am not sure what I can say to answer that.

Which came first? Angels or dinosaurs? Please cite your sources in your answer.

My big question for you Italian:

My last couple of posts have proven beyond any doubt that your "belief" with respect to why bad things happen in the world, is wrong and clearly baseless.

So, will you ignore these facts and continue with what you believed before, or adjust your theories (like any scientist would) with a new theory based upon real facts?

If you choose to keep your previous unfounded belief against the real evidence, how can you justify it (without using the words "trust" or "love" or any other non-specific blurb)?

technodad. Post 16.18pm. I gave a short list this morning of not just free will that causes problems in the world.

Italian. I am afraid I cannot agree with your statement "I think Gid intended the world to comtain these bad things".
Right back at the beginning of Genesis, God wishes that certain things hadnt happened. Because the devil messed things up.

Ellie and to a certain extent Thistledew.
My post of 11.37am this morning
[sorry I repeatly am unable to copy and post and highlight].

The last part re sheep in wolves clothing.
Anyone can go around saying they are a Christian.
Even Christians, and perhaps especially Christians are very much warned about this.
Just because someone says they are a Christian, does not automatically mean they are a Christian.

We are told to know them by their fruits.
So it is pretty safe to assume that those murdering and raping and blowing people up, who say they are Christians ARE NOT.

I dont tend to use capitals on MN. I dont think I have used them before.

Actually, that is something else I have learnt on this thread.
It never really entered my head, that non Christians would not know this. But of course they dont.

So now my eyes are opened even more to how non Christians view at least some Christians.