Praying

[technodad]

I know this has been discussed as part of other threads before, but the recent news articles discussing the fact that "everyone" is praying for Nelson Mandela has got me thinking about it again.

Why do people pray?

Clearly there are many people across the world who pray, from the rich Monarchy, to the African child dying from Malaria. Some people pray that they will get a parking space close to the supermarket, others that their daddy won't abuse them, and some that they will survive the night. Yet, sadly, children are still abused, and die, whilst fortunate people like me don't have to walk far to the shops.

So, since it is evident that if prayer does work, then it doesn't work in the way people think it should, then why do people do it. Is it:

a) Because people think it does work in a simple "ask and you shall get" sort of way, even though they see poor African children on TV breathing their last breath, which provides overwhelming evidence that it doesn't? (these people can't all be uneducated and stupid, so why think it?)

b) Because the act of praying and belief gives them an inner strength to continue with life despite it's hardships and they genuinely don't believe it will work (this seems a contradiction to me)?

c) Because people don't think about it in a conscious way and the un-thinking habit produces a reduction in stress (like clicking the end of a pen, or biting ones finger nails)?

d) I don't know what else? any other thoughts?

Also, what are people praying for with Mandela? Do they want him to survive for ever (they seem to)? Or are they praying that he will pass peacefully to "heaven" when he does finally pass? Since he is regarded as such a saviour, then surely he is guaranteed a pain free route and pride of place, so why does everyone need bother?

I would be interested in the views of any faith, or those of none equally.

Techno

[EllieArroway]

Well - if you wanted the anger between us healed, you should have just talked to me. I am not god's puppet, I make my own decisions. But you did talk to me & I accepted your prayers in the spirit you intended.

No need to have involved God at all!

And I have found my answers. That's why I'm an atheist

[technodad]

Ellie, is sounds like Niminy doesn't think you have free will and that god can change how you can behave. But I thought we all had free will - very confusing.

I did start this thread with a genuine interest in people's views, but the aggression of a few people's accusations have completely changed the tone of the thread.

I said early on that I didn't want to debate, just to get some views, but that seemed to not be allowed.

[zulubump]

I think people wanted to know if we had answered your question in any way and helped at all. That is why people were asking you for a response to all the posts you got at the beginning. You then came back with the Tim Minchin clip and the "Tim is anti-God in the way I am anti-mutant turtles" comment. This made it pretty clear you thought prayer is pointless and we are all deluded fools. In my opinion rude to start a thread like this if that is how you are going to come back to people when we've taken the trouble to answer you as best as we can. I think that is what changed the tone of the thread.

[Thistledew]

No-one has answered my questions. Should I have asked them on my own thread?

[zulubump]

Sorry, to clarify, I was addressing technodad in the post above.

[EllieArroway]

Zulu People are allowed to whatever questions they like for whatever reasons they like.

I'm not going to put words in Techno's mouth, but I often ask Christians why they think xyz, because I genuinely want to know how it is that otherwise rational people can believe such a load of of twaddle.

And when I point out that their answer hasn't made much sense, they sometimes get in a strop with me too & I'm accused of being closed-minded and bigoted.

This is a public forum. You chose to answer a question - you don't get to decide what motivation that person should have had for asking the question in the first place, I'm afraid.

[EllieArroway]

"allowed to ask"

[technodad]

Ellie - you are spot on.

In fairness, when people asked my views, did they want me to lie and say "I am undecided". Why am I not allowed to be decided in my own opinion, but not allowed to be inquisitive?

Had I not need asked my opinion and the thread dried up, I would have replied "thanks for the insight", but sadly the thread didn't go that way and I was bullied to enter a debate.

[yamsareyammy]

technodad. My praying for you will be ongoing.
My own dad, did not become a Christian until a few months before he died.
He lived in a household of Christians.

[yamsareyammy]

Thistledew - I have lost sight of the question I have not answered.

And yes, millions do charity work as well as Christians.
Christians, especially the Christian women are specifically told to do good works. That was really my point.

[technodad]

Yam

But what are you praying for? And when will it occur.

You infer you are praying for me to become Christian before die?

[yamsareyammy]

Ellie, I for one dont agree that God already knows things before we pray.
I think He does as regards Christians.
But when we pray for non Christians or about non Christians, then no, I dont think He already knows.

[EllieArroway]

Ellie, I for one dont agree that God already knows things before we pray

I thought God knew everything? Every sparrow, remember? I thought he knew the secrets of our hearts?

Do wish Christians would get their stories straight.

[Thistledew]

Yams - I'm sure your dads conversion was a great comfort to you. Would it matter if that was the only reason he did it?

When you pray for an outcome, does the act of prayer actually make you stop and think about why you want it to happen - a bit like mindfulness meditation is designed to do?

My other questions are still up thread.

[yamsareyammy]

Ellie. Christians do disagree with each other, as I am sure you have noticed.
That is part of the reason I go to church most sundays.
We will never stop learning till we die. And even then, we will only know a tiny part.

Discussions about the bible are literally endless.

[technodad]

Yams

Could you answer my question asked at 19:24 please.

[yamsareyammy]

technodad.
Personally, yes, I am and will pray for you to become a Christian before you die.
And anything else you specifically ask me to pray for is what I would have written. But thinking about it, that may be a daft thing for me to post!

[technodad]

But don't I have free will. How can got change my faith when he/she/it can't stop a man beating his wife or George Bush invading Iraq.

I am confused! Do humans have free will or not?

[technodad]

I mean "god" not "got"

[yamsareyammy]

Yes you have free will.
But equally anything is possible for God.

So God can overule you if He wants. But I dont think that happens very often - not sure.

As regards a man beating his wife or George Bush invading Iraq.
Iraq - I am sure many prayed that that wouldnt happen but it did, so then it would have had to be Gods choice that that went ahead.That does not mean that George Bush was right.

man beating wife - I would hazard a guess that it was not very likely that anyone had prayed about that.

[technodad]

You have free will, but god can overrule you, which surely means you don't have free will.

I don't think you are making much (any) sense.

[EllieArroway]

But equally anything is possible for God

Except knowing what I am thinking because I am not a Christian.

And if God doesn't know what Techno is thinking (because he is not a Christian) then how does God know that Techno is not a Christian?

Ta dah!

[EllieArroway]

Yam I do think you are a lovely, well meaning person (I have always thought that), but you really, really don't make a lot of sense.

[EllieArroway]

You don't think there are women who have prayed to God to stop their husband beating them?

[technodad]

When I said about praying with regards to a man beating his wife, I was meaning that the wife is praying that the husband would stop.

Since we have free will, then god can't stop the man from beating his wife. But you say that god can overrule free will.

Therefore god chooses to allow people to do bad things to each other by not intervening (murder, rape, robbery etc). Therefore god either doesn't exist (otherwise, why doesn't he intervene), or, as I said before, he is an utter fecking git and we should all hate his guts.

So, which is it?