Praying

[technodad]

I know this has been discussed as part of other threads before, but the recent news articles discussing the fact that "everyone" is praying for Nelson Mandela has got me thinking about it again.

Why do people pray?

Clearly there are many people across the world who pray, from the rich Monarchy, to the African child dying from Malaria. Some people pray that they will get a parking space close to the supermarket, others that their daddy won't abuse them, and some that they will survive the night. Yet, sadly, children are still abused, and die, whilst fortunate people like me don't have to walk far to the shops.

So, since it is evident that if prayer does work, then it doesn't work in the way people think it should, then why do people do it. Is it:

a) Because people think it does work in a simple "ask and you shall get" sort of way, even though they see poor African children on TV breathing their last breath, which provides overwhelming evidence that it doesn't? (these people can't all be uneducated and stupid, so why think it?)

b) Because the act of praying and belief gives them an inner strength to continue with life despite it's hardships and they genuinely don't believe it will work (this seems a contradiction to me)?

c) Because people don't think about it in a conscious way and the un-thinking habit produces a reduction in stress (like clicking the end of a pen, or biting ones finger nails)?

d) I don't know what else? any other thoughts?

Also, what are people praying for with Mandela? Do they want him to survive for ever (they seem to)? Or are they praying that he will pass peacefully to "heaven" when he does finally pass? Since he is regarded as such a saviour, then surely he is guaranteed a pain free route and pride of place, so why does everyone need bother?

I would be interested in the views of any faith, or those of none equally.

Techno

[zulubump]

OK, well going back to the original question I think I posted about how I had found that prayer helped me massively in my personal life. That's what I usually pray about - the things that confront me in my every day life. Having patience with my kids, trying not to take out my frustration with them on poor dh! I've always been sceptical of religion, but had an interest in why we are all here and what's it all about. I guess it wasn't until I had kids and spent a lot of time on my own at home with them that I found myself calling out to God when I felt a bit lost in what I was doing. There was no one else around to call out to! And then I just had some experiences that I really didn't expect where through praying my feelings of being lost or angry or whatever were transformed by this massive feeling of love.

That's when I started going to church and taking it more seriously. I've just found prayer so helpful, either praying for myself or when others have prayed for me that it felt foolish to turn away from it all. I've thought through all the kind of questions that you've asked technodad and ellie and can't really answer them. It doesn't seem fair or right or logical how it all works and I have spent a lot of time with those things going round in my head. But having felt this love from God that overflows in my life in to how I am with my family - more patient, loving kind and forgiving - I can't imagine rejecting it even if it doesn't make sense.

[technodad]

Zula

So it sounds to you that it basically gives you an inner strength?

[zulubump]

Well, yes that's what it feels like, though I'm pretty new to it all. I had a read through the mindfulness thread the other day. I guess if you find something in your life that you feel helps to make you a better person and you can see it is benefitting those around you as well as yourself, it seems crazy to reject it. I didn't really want to be a Christian (in one prayer session I even asked God if I could be an atheist as it seemed an easier option at the time! funnily enough didn't get that prayer answered). But now I've come to terms with it. It does feel like it was something that was missing from my life, sorry to sound clichéd.

[zulubump]

What do you do in times of crisis technodad, what do you reach out to?

[yamsareyammy]

free will. Not sure how to better explain it.

Is the wife that is praying, a Christian or a non Christian.
I am never sure if a non Christian prays, whether God hears or not.

If it is a Christian wife praying, then it is Gods will whether it stops or not.

And yes technodad, I can see why you and others may not be best pleased with God.

Maybe I am a bit more of a simple soul.
I accept God.
As I will have said on a thread a few months ago, I have got to the stage of gone through questioning God, and now just quietly accept.

Ellie, glad you like me

[yamsareyammy]

Ellie post 21.03pm Ta dah indeed!
And that is part of the reason I keep going and learning with all this Christian stuff.
I am not thinking that clearly today.
I will have another go at that tomorrow.

[technodad]

I try (although it is not easy) to not worry about things I can't control. Anything I can control I try to address. It helps to bound my stress.

At the moment I have little hardship in my life, except just the stress of a very challenging (yet enjoyable) job (which I am glad of, because not having the job would be much worse).

I tend to discuss my feelings with friends, which is very helpful (I am quite open about my problems when I have them). I also find humour a great tonic, especially dark humour that mocks my own woes.

It seems to work for me! That and the 50 units of alcohol per week (that is a joke - it is only 48 units).

[technodad]

Yam

It isn't that I am not best pleased with god - because god doesn't exist. I am saying that if (by some... miracle) he did exist, then he would be worthy of hating.

Since every Christian on this thread has a slightly different answer) or completely different in some cases), which one of you is right? It can't be all of you!

[yamsareyammy]

Sorry about the not best pleased bit. I forgot that you think He no more exists then the yeti.

I also agree that all Christians think slightly differently to each other.
That is Gods problem imo.
The bible is so huge and so complicated that no one realistically is going to think absolutely exactly to the next Christian.
Even my own relations, my guess is that we agree on 95% of it.

[zulubump]

Well done technodad! My dh is not a Christian and does not seem to need anything spiritual in his life. I often think he is a much nicer person than me! But I like to think that I have been a nicer wife for him with God in my life than before. So hopefully it's working for him!

It's an eternal mystery to me why there are intelligent people that I respect both in the atheist and the theist camp. And some really annoying Christians! But the Christian thing is working for me and at some point you have to make a commitment to either go for it or reject and I chose to jump in.

[technodad]

But the 5% you disagree on seems to be really important stuff, like whether free will exists, or how prayer works.

Surely if you could all agree on these issues, you would sound more convincing to outsiders.

[yamsareyammy]

I am getting a bit personal on here about my own family. So I will be a but careful, as they are not keen users of the internet themselves.

I wouldnt say that we disagree on much of the big stuff. Certainly not about prayer. Yes, maybe on free will? Dont know. Doesnt really come up much in conversation.
There is 1 big issue in the bible that my mum and I disagree on, but I am not going to say what on here, out of respect for her.

[technodad]

So is it one of you that is wrong. Both of you? Of all Christians.

You can't all be right.

[yamsareyammy]

One of us is wrong. Yes.
Obviously she thinks it is me,and I think it is her.
No biggie though.
No one Christian 100% agrees with another, as far as I know.
None of us is perfect, none of us understands the bible perfectly.

That is why I bang on about people reading the bible for themselves, and having a personal relationship with God.

I often think about Christians up to about the 13th century who couldnt read.
And had to rely on the few people who could read the bible out loud to them.
I think I would have struggled greatly with that.

[EllieArroway]

Why don't you ask God who is right?

[Thistledew]

I think it is a fascinating question that I have never been able to persuade a Christian (or anyone of any other faith) to answer:

Which aspects of your belief do you think you are most likely to be wrong about?

Or if you can't answer that, which aspects do you think it matters if you are wrong, and which do you think don't matter?

After all, with all the variances in Christian belief - not to mention the differences between the different faiths that claim to worship the same god - the chances of one person being completely right about the nature and wishes of god are so slim as to be non-existant.

[Italiangreyhound]

headinhands in what way do I ... often suggest that atheists are somehow angry closet Christians.

I do sense anger and I have mentioned it before, and maybe to some degree I do understand it. And I know others will say they are not angry at all, at God (who they don't believe in) or at theists, and I am sure some are angry and some are not. I can be quite angry myself at times. It is not a bad thing to have a righteous anger. I sense atheists are angry about the injustices in the world. And I am too. Can you tell me where I mention closet Christians.

What would you say to a Muslim who said you didn't believe in Allah because you were angry with him. It would seem nonsensical wouldn't it. That's how it feels to an atheist when you use the same logic.

I would say I was not. But then I do not write songs about someone I do not believe in and call them names, or link to those songs if someone else has written them.

I do totally get it, I do understand atheists don't believe in God so how can they be angry with God. But sometimes they sound angry. I really don't mean it as an insult. Only an observation.

Karl Marx said religion was 'the opiate of the people'. I know what that means in the context (I think) and I kind of feel at times it works the other way for some athiests. They feel God (non-existant) is somehow to blame for all the wrong in the world. Why are we agonising over whether God answers the prayer of someone late for a meeting or whose child is ill, rather than trying to address the balance of justice in the world? Does that make sense?

[Italiangreyhound]

Thistledew may I answer your post of Sat 15-Jun-13 12:31:05?

I totally see where you are coming from and there are branches of Christianity that do seem to believe to some degree that if you fit and well it is God's blessing etc, this is sometimes called the 'prosperity gospel'. I totally don't agree with this and find it abhorent. Sadly, many people do suffer through no fault of their own. I will never understand why, and I know many good Christian people who are working hard to right wrongs, to help people and to be that loving contact so many people want. I am sure there are many atheists doing this too but I simply do not know them. Many of us do not judge others, or rather try not to, and do not in any way want to be or appear 'better' than others.

[Italiangreyhound]

I am catching up with this thread! Sorry I am well behind. Ellie


www.thefreedictionary.com/rational

Rational logical aren't the same thing, one meaning of rational has the logical connection but it does also mean ability to reason and of sound mind.

1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
   
2. Of sound mind; sane.
   
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See Synonyms at logical.
   
4. Mathematics Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.
   

How are you doing Technodad? Is anything making sense? I love the idea that you are looking at a time scale for the prayer to 'work'.

Where's Pedro? I miss him.

[Italiangreyhound]

BackOnlyBriefly there are different types of prayer. Of course if a person has cancer I would offer to pray for them, to be healed, to be well, to cope with the terrible chemo etc. Do I know it will 'work'? No. Do I expect it to 'work'? Sometimes. Do I hope it will 'work'? Always. Do I care about the person? Yes. Is this one small thing I can do that might in some way help? Yes I believe it is and I expect anyone who is ill might take that offer in the spirit that it was made in. At other times, unconnected to a friend with cancer, I might pray to God just to have a chat, to make me feel better. Does it 'work'? Yes. Can I explain any of this? No. But why would I chose to give up something that might work for others and does work for me? That's very simplistic, but I just wanted to explain in case you thought that Christians were running around offering to pray for cancer patients in order to make themselves feel better. We are not. I know a few people who have had cancer (as most of us do) and it is terrible, and when my friend got breast cancer she was very happy for the prayers of anyone, Christian, Muslim, whoever. She made a recovery, for which I am very grateful. I have no way of really understanding why she got better and others do not, but I am very grateful she did.

Ellie I don't belive God 'gives' people cancer. I am not a medical person but cancer is a mutation in the body, I think.

Thistle You asked When you pray for an outcome, does the act of prayer actually make you stop and think about why you want it to happen - a bit like mindfulness meditation is designed to do?

Occasionally yes. But most of the time if I pray for things they are so obviously things that I think would be right. Like my friend being healed when she had cancer.

To get back to Technos question I wonder if the desire for people to pray in South Africa for Mandela was actually more about drawing people together in their joint inhertiance of a new South Africa because Mandela is a kind of symbol of that and once he dies the country might want to pull together for the future. If that makes sense.

Ellie of course many women have prayed God will stop their husbands beating them. You are very right to mention that. There are so many times when there are cruel terrible things in life. No I can't explain it. I would certainly not want anyone to stay in an abusive relationship and of course anyone who was in one would indeed be begging for it to change. I can't explain why God does not always step in, except that we have free will and that includes people who do good as well as bad.

Zulu that is so lovely, what you wrote about finding God and praying to be an athiest! Lovely.

yamsareyammy of course God hears non-Christians prayers. If he did not how would he ever know when they started asking about being Christians. God is not shut off from non-Christians. The Bible is so full of stories of God reaching out to everyone, the least expected. It is (IMHO) wrong to assume anyone is cut off from God in this life.

Technodad which one of us is right? Me, of course !! (Joking) and yes I love humour too, and G and T, see we are not so different. And I think you have every right to ask questions and look for answers for whatever reason you want to find them.

Thistle said Which aspects of your belief do you think you are most likely to be wrong about? If I really thought I was wrong about them I would change my belief. And you said Or if you can't answer that, which aspects do you think it matters if you are wrong, and which do you think don't matter? I think a very big issue for the Church is how we should behave towards those of other faiths. That is an issue we need to grapple with. We have limped along with a good many issues and at times my own bit of the church (Evangelical) has managed to upset a lot of people. If that upset is right and justified then of course it is right but maybe we have turned people away from God and that would be bad. Just thinking off the top of my head, this is not a reasoned argument. I just did not want your question to unanswered.

[zulubump]

Morning everyone. I really shouldn't go on these threads, I end up thinking about them all night! Happy fathers' day to any dads reading!

Re Christians disagreeing with each other, within my house group there are huge differences of opinion on things like whether women should be ministers, how free will works and creation! I've been amazed at how we can sit in a room together disagreeing on these things, yet being respectful of one another and wanting to remain together as a group and support each other. I think it's our love for God that keeps us together despite the differences and quite a refreshing experience. We've often prayed that our differences don't divide us.

Going back to prayer I read some really inspiring stuff about Martin Luther King Jnr and his prayers. If I have time I will look it up. I think it's amazing what he and others were able to bear - the violence, bitterness and hatred - without retaliating. Managing to love their enemies which is what they believed God called them to do. And I don't think they could have achieved that without prayer.

[zulubump]

And I get what you are saying Italian about being rational. I seem to be able to make sensible decisions in most areas of my life and people generally seem to trust my opinion. So in the end I have to trust my judgement of what is good and right in my life, even if it's not logical!

[technodad]

I think the quote about god being the opiate of the people is inferring that it is a drug that controls us. I.e. it is a product of society that the uneducated masses crave, and as long as they are given it, they behave like sheep and don't cause trouble. Take away the drug, and society is uncontrollable.

The thing that confused me is the following line of Christian "logic":

• god made the universe and is all powerful
• god made all life on earth
• we are gods children and he loves us like children
• god gave us free will to make our own mistakes
• this world god made is a horrid place and people often have shit short lives full of suffering
• we love god because... Erm, something about love, trust, erm, did I mention love...? Even though he brings us all these horrid things.
• we pray to god to thank him for this love, and to ask him to not do these bad things, which he is clearly doing to punish is for some reason (despite the fact that some rapists don't get caught, and some babies suffer and die, so he is clearly not very good at giving out equal punishment - maybe rape is a good thing then...?)
• we don't understand how god works, it is almost like he is not even there... Must pray harder to show him how I love and trust him.

Down here on the real world, when our living conditions are not acceptable to us (e.g. The miners during Thatcher's premiership), there were fights and riots by the people.

Somehow, even though god rules with so much more power to fix problems than Thatcher, we keep just saying "thank you" like a bunch of fucking idiots! Sure, some Christians might get angry with god, but they keep giving their money to the CofE to keep the Queen happy, and keep on being a good old sheep.

It makes no sense at all.

The thing that makes the least sense, is not the act of believing of god (since our desire to believe is genetically programmed through evolution - proven fact), but the fact that you all love the utter bastard.

[yamsareyammy]

Ellie, I could ask God, but to me it is obvious, because I am right according to what I think is in the bible. So I dont think there is a point. But maybe there is.
Also, I dont consider it a big or really a little problem. God does not expect us to know or put together everything that is in there.
Indeed, a lot of Christians have a much more simple relationship woth God. And I dont think that is a problem at all.
I think, if I asked most of the people at my church what do they think about free will, the majority of them will not understand the question. And certainly not have put much thought to the subject.

[yamsareyammy]

I think Italiangreyhound has explained the rational logic bit better than me.