Praying

[technodad]

I know this has been discussed as part of other threads before, but the recent news articles discussing the fact that "everyone" is praying for Nelson Mandela has got me thinking about it again.

Why do people pray?

Clearly there are many people across the world who pray, from the rich Monarchy, to the African child dying from Malaria. Some people pray that they will get a parking space close to the supermarket, others that their daddy won't abuse them, and some that they will survive the night. Yet, sadly, children are still abused, and die, whilst fortunate people like me don't have to walk far to the shops.

So, since it is evident that if prayer does work, then it doesn't work in the way people think it should, then why do people do it. Is it:

a) Because people think it does work in a simple "ask and you shall get" sort of way, even though they see poor African children on TV breathing their last breath, which provides overwhelming evidence that it doesn't? (these people can't all be uneducated and stupid, so why think it?)

b) Because the act of praying and belief gives them an inner strength to continue with life despite it's hardships and they genuinely don't believe it will work (this seems a contradiction to me)?

c) Because people don't think about it in a conscious way and the un-thinking habit produces a reduction in stress (like clicking the end of a pen, or biting ones finger nails)?

d) I don't know what else? any other thoughts?

Also, what are people praying for with Mandela? Do they want him to survive for ever (they seem to)? Or are they praying that he will pass peacefully to "heaven" when he does finally pass? Since he is regarded as such a saviour, then surely he is guaranteed a pain free route and pride of place, so why does everyone need bother?

I would be interested in the views of any faith, or those of none equally.

Techno

[zulubump]

I think you are right yams that most Christians haven't put much thought in things such as free will. I have at times, but end up tying myself up in knots and give up! In the end I just trust that God knows more than I do and has got it all sorted. I can't understand it all because I'm not God.

Techno, I don't think your line of thought above is how Christians think, otherwise we'd all give up. I think the world God made is a beautiful place and I am grateful for that. It does feel like God is here to me.

How can religion be a drug that makes the masses behave like sheep? What about Martin Luther King Jnr? What about Ghandi? What about Jesus curing lepers and helping prostitutes? God is there for the underdog. To help them find the strength to right wrongs in society. But he doesn't just come in and do it on his own. It's a partnership with us and if we sit idly by waiting for God to do it all for us then nothing will change.

[yamsareyammy]

technodad.
The bit that is left out of all that is the devil and our own sin.

Our own sin. We are all born sinners.

the devil. Ah, here comes a big problrm. Even talking about the d is a bit dangerous somehow. Never been quite sure how.
I am praying as I post this so that God looks after me while I talk about it.
It is not talked about much in services. Partly it has gone out of fashion, and partly even angels are careful about talking about it.

He, the d, is messing up absolutely everything here on earth.

Yes, God overrules some of it, but the d together with our own sin, and together with our own free will[except the tiny bits where He overrules], means yes, the earth is a mess.

[yamsareyammy]

zulu.Yes I think you are right. It is quite ok to God to not put too much thought into some of it.
I always think about that we are all different parts of the body.
Me myself, I am not the worlds greatest prayer by a long way.
And that used to bother me a lot. But eventually I realised that if God wanted me to be, He would make me. I dont think I have improved that much, so I assume I dont have to any more.

[technodad]

So god kills the African baby with aids because he is a sinner?

But let's Ronnie Biggs run free because he was clearly the salt of the earth.

Nice!

You say the world is a great place worth saying thanks for, but (as I have asked many times before on this thread and had no response), do you think the African child with aids is thanking god?

[MissAnnersley]

Interesting thread.

I pray for inner strength, I pray when I am in despair. I have daily prayers that I can't explain that feel like an inner dialogue with God which I don't really understand but always do.

I also pray when I'm angry with God.

I can't offer any rational explanation for any of it but have never thought to as it is personal and belongs only to me.

[EllieArroway]

Italian

For a start, I think if atheists are angry, it's with some justification. Religion hurts people - lots of people. It might be the joy of your life, but it's also responsible for Nigerian children being tortured as witches by their own parents.

I'm tired of this "Why are atheists so angry" crap. Some things are worth being angry about - THIS blog explains it beautifully. I also hope I never again hear anyone hint that they think we're angry with God. For goodness sake - such a thing is an impossibility. The closest I can get to being angry with God is the vague discomfort I get that every Christian in the world tries to justify their worship of something that is presented as being so monstrous. Even if Yahweh existed, I wouldn't worship it.

Erm...your own definition shows that that rationality is the application of reason and logic. Rationality is where you get when you use these two things. Astonished that you would try and argue anything else . I love how terrified you all are of the word "logic" though - and not surprised.

Ellie I don't belive God 'gives' people cancer. I am not a medical person but cancer is a mutation in the body, I think

No, Italian - I am well aware that you operate an odd thought process that exempts God from all the horrendous suffering in the world while praising him when anything good happens. There's a name for such nonsense CONFIRMATION BIAS.

Zulu

And I don't think they could have achieved that without prayer

Oh, really? What do you think the religion of the racists in the US was? They were Christians. The Klu Klux Klan were protestants, the slave owners who originally brought black people to the States used the Bible to justify their actions - unsurprisingly, since the Bible supports & condones slavery. Why don't you ascribe all of their actions to prayer? Hmmm? They would have told you God was on their side and they'd have quoted the Bible at you to prove it.

But no - you pluck out the good stuff that one Christian did, and ignore that the situation was caused by devout Christians in the first place.

What a shame that you cannot recognise the humanity of MLK - you have to put it down to your God, as if no human being can do anything decent all by themselves.

I should think that if your God was so anti-slavery that he got rid of it by using Martin Luther King as a puppet to do his work, why allow a "holy book" that's supposed to stand as a moral guideline for us all, to condone it so vigorously?

[EllieArroway]

I think Italiangreyhound has explained the rational logic bit better than me

Well no - she gave a definition that proved my point.

But if you all want me to believe that you don't use logic - fine. I agree - Christians don't use logic. If they did, they wouldn't be Christians.

[MissAnnersley]

I don't employ logic. It's my faith. I've never considered that it should be logical.

[yamsareyammy]

Good answer MissAnnersley.
Wish I had always came from that particular viewpoint.

[EllieArroway]

I don't employ logic. It's my faith. I've never considered that it should be logical

It astonishes me that so many people say this with a straight face.

And interestingly - when I point out that Christianity is unreasonable, illogical and defies all rationality, I get "No, no! We have thought about our faith, you know!"

If you abandon logic, you abandon your intelligence. And that's a shameful thing, most certainly not anything to be proud of.

[yamsareyammy]

technodad
African baby with Aids. The baby will almpst definitely not have died because of what it had done up to that point.
But it may have died because of the things his parents may or may not have done. That is possible.
It may also have died because nobody prayed for it to live.

I realise these answers may be upsetting to you, and for you to be no nearer in believing in God.

[yamsareyammy]

Ellie, You are still getting rational and logic confused.
Maybe not the dictionary definition.
But what we mean by it.
If I could think of different words to describe this I would.

If we abandon logic, we have not abandoned intelligence.

Trouble is, I am aware as I write this that we are in essence discussing the definition of words, rather than what the words mean.

[MissAnnersley]

I didn't say say I was proud. I was just being honest and speaking for myself.
I don't associate my faith with logic or intelligence. It doesn't mean I am stupid.
I don't feel shame for having faith. It sustains me and helps me.

[yamsareyammy]

Ronnie Biggs.
God knows what is in our hearts. I think all of our hearts, which includes the non Christians - not absolutely sure on that point.

So one possible answer to why Ronnie Biggs was allowed to live is that God may have known he had a chance of becoming a Christian.

I have said before on this board, about the parable of the weeds. That there are some people who will never become Christians.

Others do have the potential to be.

[technodad]

Yam

Great numbers of these African parents who have sinned are Christian. Indeed, the fact they have aids is because of the fucking piece of shit pope telling them that they must not used condoms.

How is it that all these parents are sinners and deserve to see their children die, yet are already Christian, but masses of agnostic and athiest people in the UK are allowed to live because god thinks they will become Christian later in life.

Do you even read what you write before you click "post" to make sure it makes sense an is not an utterly horrible thing to say? Indeed, have you bothered to actually think what you believe beyond having been brain washed with "trust and love"?

I know I sound harsh, but I find your rationale utterly despicable! Am I the only one?

[MissAnnersley]

I don't agree with yams perspective on this. Sorry yams. You are a lovely poster.

I agree that the Catholic church has a lot to answer for. But then, so do many other churches.

[yamsareyammy]

I cant give you all answers btw, just most of the ones I have.

I dont agree with much of what the Catholic hierarchy says and does if that helps.
Some of it is rules added on to the bible which is a complete no no. A dangerous thing to do, God wise.

Are you saying that some of the African babies that die, that have aids , have Christian parents.
Well presumably they prayed, and presumably God still let that child die.
That is up to God.
It does happen occasionally that children of Chrisitians die.
It has not happened to me, so I am not the best person in the world to answer that question.
But as Christians, we have to hopefully cope and accept it.

[yamsareyammy]

Thats ok MissAnnersley.

[EllieArroway]

Ellie, You are still getting rational an.d logic confused.
Maybe not the dictionary definition

Yam Please! You do not get to make up your own definitions of words, I'm afraid, and then expect me to use them.

I use the English language - I know what rationality means. If you are unclear, look in the dictionary.

[technodad]

"It happens occasionally"

That is a bit of an understatement, since this thread started, thousands have died!

Fundamentally, as nice as you are yam, your responses show that you have made up an "opinion" without engaging with many facts!

Immediately, another Christian had joined the thread with their own "opinion". Now you have a disagreement with your mother, and a mumsnetters. If we ask every Christian, will we ever find two that agree?

Like I have said before, you can't all be right, but you definitely can all be wrong!

[EllieArroway]

It doesn't mean I am stupid

I doubt that, in any other area of your life, you are either stupid or unintelligent.

But your "faith" is stupid. You abandon common sense (an application of logic) in order to support it. I cannot think of anything more stupid, quite honestly.

Seems peculiar that any God capable of devising quantum mechanics and evolution would demand that people abandon their common sense in order to believe in him. Maybe he just prefers to be worshipped by the less bright amongst us. That's the only explanation I can think of.

I know I sound harsh, but I find your rationale utterly despicable! Am I the only one?

No, you're not.

God knows what is in our hearts. I think all of our hearts, which includes the non Christians - not absolutely sure on that point

Yam - Make up your mind. Yesterday you were telling us that God only knows what Christians are thinking.

I will never be a Christian. Never. Maybe, perhaps, I might come to believe that the universe has an intelligent thought process behind it (very unlikely, but science might find something that suggests that) - but I will never be a Christian because the whole idea of it is so manifestly ridiculous.

[yamsareyammy]

ok Ellie.
Trouble was, I didnt understand the dictionary definition.
Perhaps I will leave the discussion of rational and logic.
I know what I mean, and I think others on here think the same as me, not sure.
But I will leave that particular discussion, as I only have words to use, and my words may not be yours or the dictionary words in this particular case.

[yamsareyammy]

Ellie, yes at some point I need to look into detail about the ta da bit.
It will take some time.

[MissAnnersley]

I have never found two people who agree with everything the other one says or believes.

I have attended the same church as my mother all my life and we disagree on many aspects of our faith because it doesn't belong to a church or a religion. Faith, to me is a conviction or a trust and by its very nature entirely personal.

[yamsareyammy]

Ellie, can I ask for you, what is it that keeps driving you towards the whole subject?
You seem to want to very much understand how Christians think and perhaps behave?