Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Original poster

YEC part Trois

406 replies

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 12/05/2013 09:15

So we're still going, perhaps not as YEC as originally, but there's some good debate still occurring! Can we link from previous again?

OP posts:
daftdame · 16/05/2013 12:05

I understand your point. It is sort of what the Old testament reflects. For me to be entirely happy the judge would be acting under God's Authority, doing His will.

For me God's will is synonymous with what is right.

As Back reminded us vengeance belongs to God. God can carry out His will through people.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 16/05/2013 12:23

God can carry out His will through people.

A very frightening idea that. People who believe that they have the will of god on their side can and have done terrible things.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 12:37

Sabrina agree although I'm not sure I would consider them true believers, they weren't acting according to faith anyway.

The Bible tells us to beware of false doctrines, tares (people put there by Satan) and how to know them from their fruits (although as I said before we cannot judge and the tares are not to be judged till judgement day). Its why we must be vigilant and continually refresh our minds with reading the Bible and prayer.

Look at 1 Corinthians 13 which shows how important love is.

BackOnlyBriefly · 16/05/2013 12:42

How do you know God has a 'taste for it' I read the bible.

but there has to be some element of punishment for society's sake

Personally I see that as a means to deter others rather than vengeance as such. I mean the relatives of a victim might want the criminal killed horribly and that's understandable, but this is why we don't let relatives or victims decide. Instead we (try) to put it in the hands of people who can be coldly practical about it.

That's why I think the bible is different because god comes off as reveling in it. To paraphrase many bible verses "Kill them all! Not just the people who did it, but their wives, their children, their friends, their dog and anyone else in the neighbourhood"

Of course it isn't really god saying that since he doesn't exist so you have to think of a leader saying all that and people going along with it. More understandable back then in primitive times than it is now.

Original poster
PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 16/05/2013 12:44

Pedro This is why Christian's believe God is the only judge (we cannot judge each other).

Well, we can judge people and we do. But even if we couldn't, why does that automatically both require a god and give him the only right to judge? Perhaps there's no one to judge us.

OP posts:
EllieArroway · 16/05/2013 12:48

God can carry out His will through people.....so much for free will, then, if God is "using" people to do what he wants.

Have you ever really thought this through, Daftdame? What kind of society would this be if we couldn't judge each other? No justice system of any kind - no police force (who rely on their own judgements), no social workers (who rely on their own judgements), and so on. We HAVE to judge, otherwise we would be completely unable to protect innocent people.

And I'm not a fan of leaving it all up to your God, since he seems to have a pretty weird set of priorities. He's apparently willing to forgive just about anything, except denying the holy spirit - you just have to remember to say sorry first. So a repentant Hitler could be in a state of bliss in Heaven as we speak - while Einstein & Darwin, who achieved so much for us, are being barbecued.

For me God's will is synonymous with what is right So, it's up to God what's moral and what isn't? What's objective about that? Morality can only be truly objective if it holds true in all circumstances - and if something HAS to hold true, then this means that God has his hands tied & can never change his mind about what's moral and what's not. So it's not really up to him, is it?

Not sure I've explained myself very well in the last paragraph but I'm pushed for time.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 12:49

Personally I prefer the deterant take on things. However what I may see as deterant someone else may see as retribution. I think the reality is somewhere between the 2, with the added splash if protecting society from other possible wrongdoings.

Couldn't agree more about the OT take on things being about punishing everyone within striking distance, whether innocent or not. Very similar to acts of war....or terror. I wonder why people think religion might be a bad thing?

EllieArroway · 16/05/2013 12:54

Didn't God say somewhere in the OT that he likes the smell of burning human flesh? Charming. Wonder if he likes the taste of it too, like Hannibal Lecter.

BoB I LOVE The Galaxy song. That's how I remember facts about how fast we're spinning & moving through space!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 16/05/2013 12:56

daftdame, sorry but you're sounding like Harold bloody Camping.

LizzyDay · 16/05/2013 12:58

"The Bible tells us to beware of false doctrines, tares (people put there by Satan) and how to know them from their fruits (although as I said before we cannot judge and the tares are not to be judged till judgement day). Its why we must be vigilant and continually refresh our minds with reading the Bible and prayer. "

Do you seriously believe that you come across people in your life who were put there by Satan? Really?? Even if you don't I'm sure there are many who do believe it, which I find most disturbing.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 13:14

Ellie Our will is free because we choose let God work His will through us or not. We have a justice system because we live in a fallen world and people do not do God's will all of the time.

Lizzy I can't honestly say I know any people put in my life through Satan. From history I would wonder about Hitler. (Also, privately, I've sometimes wondered whether people have said out loud the odd thought that Satan has put into their head. Grin)

Back I just don't see God revelling in it. You've just got to look at how Jesus was, for example with the woman who was about to be stoned.

Sabrina Who is Harold bloody Camping?

daftdame · 16/05/2013 13:22

Ellie I think you might have a disagreement with Pedro regarding whether morality can be objective, not me. Because God knows all our hearts he is fair and just not sure it is the same as objective. In fact it is objective (because he is fair) and subjective (because he loves each and everyone of us).

daftdame · 16/05/2013 13:31

Ellie Re. judgement, I tend to take the meaning associated with either being declared righteous or damnation.

Someone can be blameless but still have committed a crime if they don't fully understand what they did, in which case rehabilitation is appropriate IYSWIM.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 13:32

Have you ever been to a non Christian country? Is it like walking with the damned? I mean all the good non Christan people in the world that must be destined for hell? Thats odd to me if God loves us all

daftdame · 16/05/2013 13:33

January I would not say that. We are all made in God's image, there is inherent goodness in all of us as well as faults.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 16/05/2013 13:53

Despite the inherent goodness in these non-christians though, according to your faith, you will go to heaven and they won't?

daftdame · 16/05/2013 13:57

According to Christianity, going to Heaven is a choice, you either want to be with God or not.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 14:04

yep but what choice are people who know nothing of Christianity given. You can only get to be with God if you know him. Thats an awful lot of people with no choiceSad

daftdame · 16/05/2013 14:12

January Hence the Great Commission, also the Bible does say every one knows God exists when considering what he has created. ( I forget the exact scripture but I have read it). Jesus also says we have a choice, "Choose life...". I am still studying this myself so do not have all the scriptures to hand....

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 14:21

So the God I know exists is ok and I dont have to stick with all of your doctorine? Just a thought

daftdame · 16/05/2013 14:23

January ?

But I thought you were choosing?

What exactly are you choosing?

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 14:32

I choose the God that makes rational sense to me. Unfortunately it is not the one your bible portrays

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 14:36

"everyone knows God exists considering what he created" This is very different to "everyone knows what is written in the bible and that is the only way to know God and the only path to him"

The first means anyone who considers a deity knows God regardless of religion. It is still not a broad enough catchment for me but it is getting there.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 14:37

January Which god is that?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 16/05/2013 14:41

daftdame, I wouldn't agree that 'everyone knows god exists'.