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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

YEC part Trois

406 replies

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 12/05/2013 09:15

So we're still going, perhaps not as YEC as originally, but there's some good debate still occurring! Can we link from previous again?

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/05/2013 16:18

And how, in the name of all sanity, have I never seen before? V pertinent to the discussion Smile

daftdame · 15/05/2013 16:27

As this could be:

BackOnlyBriefly · 15/05/2013 18:54

Love the Tim Minchin stuff.

daftdame I liked your one too as a song and I think I understood enough of it to see why it might be inspiring. Then again I love the "Jerusalem" hymn too. And when I wonder about my place in the universe I listen to the song :)

If 'The Cave' refers to plato's cave I'd have to say that one of the things I value about being an atheist is that I can look in all directions without worrying that I might see something 'difficult'. It's very relaxing.

daftdame · 15/05/2013 19:08

BackOnlyBriefly Plato's Cave has significance to me too, as a Christian, set free..

Caves signify heavily in the Bible also.

BestValue · 16/05/2013 00:10

"No, the passage does not say that. You are adding your own "let's try to make this abhorrent verse not quite so abhorrent" gloss on it."

Snorbs, you can't just cherry-pick verses. As Daft has said repeatedly, you must take the ENTIRE Bible into account. The Bible is very clear that humans were created in the image of God, are all related to Adam and Eve and are to be treated equally.

"If you beat your slave so badly he dies three days after you've beaten him there won't be an eye-for-an-eye punishment will there?"

Yes there will. You will lose YOUR life just as HE has lost his.

"Moreover, if the eye-for-an-eye punishment still holds regardless of whether it's a slave or not why have this law at all? What does it add?"

What it adds is to make clear that slaves are to be treated with respect like everyone else - unlike other cultures at the time where slaves were mistreated. With a little consideration, you'll see that many of these verses actually mean the opposite of what you think they mean.

BestValue · 16/05/2013 00:28

"Yes, and if you'd bothered actually doing any research, you'd know that his paper has been completely rejected by all of his peers as fanciful nonsense."

Most scientists rejected the big bang theory at first too - mostly because it was proving the Bible correct. Besides, as you well know, truth is not decided by majority opinion.

"Guess who employs him, btw....Answers in Genesis. EMPLOYS him. Bit like tobacco companies who employ people with respectable credentials to say what they want people to hear."

That's quite an accusation. I suppose you've got evidence for that, right? Not just that he's employed by them but that they hired him to lie for them.

"For such God-fearing folk, you creationists are really very dishonest."

On the contrary. Remember that Christians believe they have a responsibility to God to be honest. Atheists have no such objective moral code. If a Christian lies, we might rightly call her a hypocrite. But if an atheist lies we cannot criticize her because she is just doing whatever she feels is right at the time.

In fact, how's this for a syllogism:

Premise #1: Atheists (i.e. humanists) believe it is sometimes morally permissible to lie to prevent harm. (eg. the Jews in the attic dilemma.)

Premise #2: Atheists (i.e. humanists) believe that religion causes harm.

Conclusion: Atheists (i.e. humanists) consider it morally permissible to lie anywhere they see religion doing harm to help to minimize that harm - including in public debates such as THIS ONE on MumsNet. Wink

Tell us - why should Christians trust that any atheist is being honest when it comes to matters of religion? Shouldn't we expect that it would be in their best interest to lie as much as possible if it will help to eradicate religion and, in the long run, prevent more harm and suffering?

EllieArroway · 16/05/2013 03:54

Most scientists rejected the big bang theory at first too - mostly because it was proving the Bible correct. Besides, as you well know, truth is not decided by majority opinion

No - it was not "rejected", and certainly not because of The Bible. Most scientists are pretty educated people, Best - it's only the uneducated cough like you cough who think a collection of Bronze Age fairtytales has anything to say about science. When the BB was first proposed, there were no observations (or only a few) to support it. When those observations were made, science changed it's mind. Science is good like that - religion (particularly your infantile brand) is spectacularly bad.

Dr Lisle's piece of crap research doesn't just have no supporting observations, it flies in the face of all that cosmology knows, which is quite a lot. The physics community laughed at him - or politely smirked behind their hands.

That's quite an accusation. I suppose you've got evidence for that, right? Not just that he's employed by them but that they hired him to lie for them

Dr Jason Lisle.

I never said he "lied" - I said he said what they wanted to hear. Whether that was because he's bloody useless or dishonest is not for me to say. I'll go with a bit of both.

But YECs generally are very dishonest. How many times did we catch you quote mining? How many times did you manipulate quotes? How many times were you PROVEN wrong and refused to admit it? If you're typical (and you are) then I stand by that. And you are Exhibit No. 1 Wink

On the contrary. Remember that Christians believe they have a responsibility to God to be honest.....and how you must be making the baby Jesus cry, Best.

Atheists have no such objective moral code. If a Christian lies, we might rightly call her a hypocrite. But if an atheist lies we cannot criticize her because she is just doing whatever she feels is right at the time

Your stupidest, and most unsupported claim (other than our cohabitation with dinosaurs of course) is that morality is impossible unless it's objective.

No. I, personally, do what feels right at the time, yes - not just what's right for me, but what's right for everybody, on balance.

But I think I'd prefer not to listen to a morality lecture from someone who would let a baby starve to death rather than break a window and take some milk.

In fact, how's this for a syllogism:

Well, it's not one for a start. Bit crap at logic, aren't you?

#1 - Yes, I think under certain circumstances it's permissible to lie to protect others. (You, presumably would have ratted out Anne Frank?)

#2: Yes, I think religion can do enormous harm.

And your conclusion from this is that I (and my fellow atheists) are lying on this thread to protect others from harm?

Don't flatter yourself. I don't think anyone's in danger from harm here - MNers are pretty smart generally, and you are nowhere near as persuasive as you think you are.

And where have we lied, then?

(BTW: January is not an atheist. What's her motivation for highlighting your ludicrous misrepresentations of science? Could it just be that she's an honest person who accepts reality and bases her beliefs around it? Like, you know, rational people do).

Gutted you've not heard of TAG. We could have really got our teeth into that one. (It's the Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God. Look up Matt Slick & CARM).

EllieArroway · 16/05/2013 04:56

What it adds is to make clear that slaves are to be treated with respect like everyone else

Do you really not understand that it's immoral to keep slaves at all - let alone kill them under certain circumstances?

And, no - it wasn't anything like the employer/employee relationship. You've just made that up - as you made up the bit about the slave owner dying too.

Face it - your God totally approves of slavery, genocide, blood sacrifice & murder. And his attitude to rape is, frankly, disgusting.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 06:52

you quoted the verse yourself -

"but they are not to be punished if they recover after a day or two because the slave is their property"

Where is the eye for an eye here?

BackOnlyBriefly · 16/05/2013 08:49

Not the morality bit again. Need I remind Christians that according to their bible they must be willing to obey and love god no matter what. Even if he tells you to murder children.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 09:51

Sad I don't know what I would do in the Anne Frank situation. There is sin whichever way you turn. 'Ratting' on Anne certainly would be a sin as it would make you complicit in the Nazi's evil campaign, a stumbling block allowing them to sin. We live in a fallen world.

I, as you know, am a Christian. I am comforted by the fact that if you believe on Jesus all your sins are forgiven. As for the correct action Jesus said this,

"But when they shall lead you and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." (Mark 13:11)

Thus, Christians, we should do what we believe is right at the time too...

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 16/05/2013 09:55

Morality cannot be objective. Morality is based on the wellbeing being of yourself and others. It's quite clear that everything which may be best for your own wellbeing will not necessarily be best for everyone else.

Are there good things and bad things? Yes. For example, let's say hypothetically, a radioactive dust cloud descended on the whole earth reducing the relative health of every living thing on the planet. I hope it would be clear that this would be bad for 'life' (if not, I'd love to hear your definition if bad.

Anything which can be done to subsequently improve life and health from this position would therefore be good.

However, that's not to say that there would be one correct way of improving everyone's health. There would be many alternatives.

Most actions are not 'good' or 'bad' for everyone. So morality must be judged by a balance of what is generally better on the whole for the wellbeing of yourself and others. To say one specific thing, like murder, is objectively wrong is to completely ignore the surrounding conditions of the act.

OP posts:
daftdame · 16/05/2013 10:03

Pedro This is why Christian's believe God is the only judge (we cannot judge each other).

Added to this we know we can only be righteous by believing on Christ because human kind cannot keep the whole of the Law. Breaking just one part shows unrighteousness. We can only be redeemed through Christ, we have to accept that we cannot be redeemed through our own works or actions.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 10:18

oh but we can, and must, judge each other. Hence the court system.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 10:23

January I'm really glad I'm not a judge Grin.

If I was I'd have to think primarily about keeping society safe and rehabilitation and not retribution. I still wouldn't be saying or be expected say people are damned.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 10:35

My friend wrote her masters dissertation on rehabilitation vs retribution in the prison system. Brilliant read (her brilliant make very well deserved).

Safety is both physical and psychological. An element of retribution is necessary for society as a whole to feel safe. where as the long term physical safety of society is reliant on rehabilitation and deterant.

Could you be a juror?

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 10:46

You really don't knoe that you would do in the Anne Frank situation? Really? You know people are being murdered purely on the basis of their religion, these people include small children. You don't know what you would do because trying to protect some of these people might involve telling a couple of lies Sad

daftdame · 16/05/2013 11:00

January madness. Please don't read me wrong...I probably didn't express my self very well. I hope I do know and I hope I'd be brave and protect Anne. For that I need my faith.

I don't judge people who are cowardly, I'm sure we have all been guilty of cowardly behaviour in the past. However the Bible says that love can combat fear so my intention would be to focus on that.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 11:04

January When I was called I got an exemption because of personal circumstances.

I understand deterrent, I'd have to have greater understanding than I posses now to fully understand retribution.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 11:06

if you were called again would you go?

daftdame · 16/05/2013 11:09

January Don't know. Depends whether I was eligible to be exempt or not. If not I'd go and pray a lot and do my best.

BackOnlyBriefly · 16/05/2013 11:16

keeping society safe and rehabilitation and not retribution That's what I'd be thinking about too. Sometimes the threat of retribution can be a deterrent, but the retribution itself is pointless.

I'd even be ok with capital punishment to protect society (exile is better, but where to?), but I'd insist it was painless because it's not about revenge - just a practical solution.

"Vengeance is mine saith the lord". See you have to have the taste for it.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 11:23

Back How do you know God has a 'taste for it', he is just saying it (vengeance) belongs to Him, it is under His authority.

Then if you were Pedro's friend you would say retribution was necessary.

daftdame · 16/05/2013 11:27

^ sorry January's friend.

Januarymadness · 16/05/2013 11:52

but there has to be some element of punishment for societies sake. Take the Philpot case. Rehabilitation and protecting others is unlikely to play a major part here. Their actions lead to the deaths of their children. They probably didn't mean to and they would be unlikely to repeat such actions so there is no need for rehabilitation in that sense. But there did need to be punishment. Society at large would not be ok with them not paying a harsh penalty.

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