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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

YEC part Trois

406 replies

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 12/05/2013 09:15

So we're still going, perhaps not as YEC as originally, but there's some good debate still occurring! Can we link from previous again?

OP posts:
BackOnlyBriefly · 17/05/2013 14:21

btw while most people will now admit that Jesus was not born on Dec 25th this was not always the case and isn't now for everyone.

Here's one example

And another

I also found lots of questions along the lines of "I've just been told that Jesus wasn't born on christmas day. It's not true is it?"

It's not terribly important, but too often we see "oh, but christians never believed that.." as the churches retreat from untenable positions. Funnily enough I have been told by Christians that no ever believed in young earth creationism. That I was just making it up to make Christians look daft.

daftdame · 17/05/2013 14:22

Back God is the same, remains constant, does not change. Contexts change and in the Bible you see God from different perspectives and in different contexts.

BackOnlyBriefly · 17/05/2013 14:26

daftdame I didn't understand a word of that that to be honest. Do you believe that some things are just wrong. Always have been and always will be - no matter who does them?

daftdame · 17/05/2013 14:29

Back I've never found Jesus' birth date in the Bible. It does not matter to me,

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind

He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks (Romans 14:5-6).

daftdame · 17/05/2013 14:32

Back Sorry, you see my words just aren't enough...Yes some things are just wrong but only God can judge them. As humans we can't escape our context, eg would you have done the same in their shoes? - type thinking.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 17/05/2013 14:36

Yes BOB - I've met a few that genuinely thought it was Jesus's birthday and look Confused and Shock when they find out it wasn't. They are generally young people that have never heard of pagan gods/mithras. They are equally surprised about Easter / Eostre.

Interesting disturbing link btw.

daftdame · 17/05/2013 14:41

Sabrina I know about the pagan festivals, and symbolism in churches, green man etc.

It's why I have difficulty with some established churches, when the ritual becomes more important than scripture. Although I know many people for whom ritual strengthens and helps develop / deepen their faith so my difficulty is not clear cut.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 17/05/2013 14:42

The rituals were the tools used by St Augustine to convert Pagan England over to Christianity. He hijacked the existing pagan festivals.

daftdame · 17/05/2013 14:47

Sabrina I know. Although there is also ritual / symbolism present in the Bible. I think , put in the right perspective, it can strengthen understanding, make something intangible more tangible.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 17/05/2013 14:56

Or convert the masses so that someone gains control and power?

daftdame · 17/05/2013 14:56

From my perspective "The Wicker Man" is really disturbing and Kitsch ant the same time. Like the music though.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 17/05/2013 14:59

A very young Edward Woodward there. The Wicker Man is a very disturbing film I agree. It's meant to be. I'm no pagan.

Beautiful song though.

EllieArroway · 17/05/2013 16:00

*Btw, I believe that Jesus, the man, existed. But he was most unlikely to have been born on Dec 25th

Here's what we know historically:

  • Wasn't born on Dec 25th (if born at all)
  • Very unlikely to have been born in Bethlehem
  • There was no star that people were able to follow from country to country
  • There was no census
  • King Herod never ordered the mass murder of babies & toddlers
  • No trial took place over Passover & no thief was released (and wouldn't have been being crucified either)
  • No darkness covered Jerusalem, the curtains in the Temple did not rend and no Zombies invaded the city
  • Pilate in real life was a bit of a shit - not the decent man portrayed by the gospels
  • Also worth noting that a death from crucifixion a long time - you are gradually suffocated under the weight of your own lungs. Very unlikely that an otherwise healthy person would die in a matter of hours

Up until about 6 weeks ago, I would have agreed with you that Jesus probably existed as a man, just not as a divine being. In fact, I started my thread from that position - and this was because the scholarly consensus is that he probably existed. I'm all for scholarly consensuses - if all the experts in a field appear to say one thing, I respect that.

But as I was writing my posts on that thread I was thinking "Why do they think he existed again?". I realised there were certain inferences that could be drawn, but they were beginning to look mighty weak. So I went searching with my historian hat on (history is my subject).

What I've found is genuinely shocking. The "scholars" are almost entirely theologians with literature degrees in the NT NOT historians. There are not actually that many real historians who have addressed this - although there are some. The kind of rigorous methodology we would normally expect in a situation like this has been largely ignored and far too much emphasis has been placed on rather shaky inferences, which cannot themselves be supported. I'd also say, that evidence from the Bible itself seems to have been completely ignored.

For example - Acts tells us about some trials that very early Christians find themselves involved in. They are asked to prove before judges that this Jesus character they worshipped was real. Not one of them mentioned any aspect of his life on earth - his parents, his family, his miracles in front of thousands. They only blather on about visions they've had and revelations. This is like if I had to prove that Tony Blair really existed but could only offer my dreams about him as evidence Hmm (NB: I have never dreamt about Tony Blair. To be clear). That's one example out of many.

It looks very much as if the earliest Christians of all (including Paul) had no earthly idea that Jesus was supposed to have been an historically existing person.

I still have lots of reading to do - but, thus far, my mind is largely changed. I think he is entirely mythical and was never intended to be seen as anything other than a sky god, which would have fit perfectly with the type of gods people worshipped back then.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 17/05/2013 16:08

Very interesting, Ellie.

daftdame · 17/05/2013 16:37

Ellie Well all I can do right now is repeat the cliché:

"The truth is out there..."

Good hunting!

P.S. I am happy with my faith, it has helped me through a lot in my life so I will continue to believe. I don't have the historical data to hand, I could go hunting for it but right now it's just not a priority for me. I have enjoyed watching some amazing archaeological documentaries though, and wondered at the mysteries that unfold....I'm content with the mystery for now.

EllieArroway · 17/05/2013 17:01

P.S. I am happy with my faith, it has helped me through a lot in my life so I will continue to believe No reason why you shouldn't :)

I don't have the historical data to hand, I could go hunting for it but right now it's just not a priority for me No need. I know what you'll say....Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny, Seutonius etc..... and I'll just have to point out that these are not sources that indicate an historical Jesus. I did all of that on my thread, and going through it all again would be boring for everyone.

Anyhow....I'm signing off for a while. DS has three GCSE exams next week and needs my support.

Thanks for a stimulating discussion, people. Hopefully in a week or so I can catch up on some more great debate.

Januarymadness · 17/05/2013 17:56

Good luck Ellies DSGrin

BackOnlyBriefly · 17/05/2013 18:14

Yeah good luck with GCSEs

AgeofReason · 23/05/2013 04:04

Well, it certainly got quiet around here... did I miss something?? And out of curiosity, what are GCSEs?

EllieArroway · 23/05/2013 10:10

Hello, Age.

GCSEs are exams taken by 15/16 years olds here in the UK that mark the end of their compulsory secondary education. A pretty big deal because the next step (A'Levels) depends on what grades they get. Not sure what the equivalent would be in Canada.

My DS has Physics RIGHT NOW! He wants to be an astronomer/physicist so this is his most important - so I'm chewing my fingers off a bit. Has English Lit this afternoon.

I was going to come on here and see what Best thinks about the new, possible evidence for the multiverse that was announced this week, given how obsessed he is with it. But I can guess what he thinks, to be honest.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 23/05/2013 16:00

Good luck to your ds Ellie. My dh did physics and astrophysics at uni and loved it. He's in IT now so it can lead you anywhere...

BestValue · 24/05/2013 18:52

I'm planning a big come back soon - when I have time. Maybe over the weekend. There are a few posts I'd like to respond to.

BestValue · 26/05/2013 20:19

"I was going to come on here and see what Best thinks about the new, possible evidence for the multiverse that was announced this week, given how obsessed he is with it. But I can guess what he thinks, to be honest."

I didn't hear anything about that announcement, Ellie. But I love VALID evidence. Until recently, they admitted the multi-verse in not testable and unfalisfiable - and thus not science. When they discovered a way to test it, the test was negative. That's good science.

I'm not obsessed with the the multi-verse, atheists are. It gives them a way to explain the fine-tuning without God. Of course, even if there IS a multi-verse that would just amplify the need for God. But I predict this new evidence is just more wishful thinking and reckless speculation.

EllieArroway · 27/05/2013 10:47

HERE Best

I'm not saying it is evidence, by the way - for a start it's in the Daily Mail and I wouldn't trust that rag to tell me what day of the week it is, but it's vaguely interesting, if it's true.

And you, in fact, are the only person who keeps wittering on about the multiverse, no one else.

Incidentally - you STILL haven't presented the fine-tuning argument. I suspect you don't really know what it is. (Clue: It is not the same as the Anthropic Principle or the argument from design).

BestValue · 27/05/2013 19:47

Okay Ellie, I haven't looked at your link above yet or even read your post because I want to respond to what I discovered on my own. With regard to the multi-verse, the new "evidence," as I understand it, is that the CMBR is not uniformly distributed as predicted by the big bang model. Some physicists interpret the anomalies as being caused by the gravitational pull from other universes.

Now, let's put on our Skeptic's hats and look at this evidence critically. Here are a few things we could conclude thus far:

  1. Very few physicists accept this conclusion so it is too early to tell until more data comes in.
  1. The findings did not match predictions. Rather than violate Occam's Razor by proposing even more entities to explain the anomalies, perhaps we should conclude that the big bang model is flawed or wrong since its' predictions continue to fail.
  1. Maybe the prediction failed because the universe is not 13.8 billion years old and the CMBR has simply not had enough time to become evenly distributed.

It's also interesting to note that the main proponent of this hypothesis is Dr Laura Mersini-Houghton. I did some research on her. She believes the universe has an edge. If the universe has an edge, it also has a centre and maybe my gravitational time dilation theory is correct after all. If so, perhaps the necessity to postulate other universes goes away.

And finally, they are looking for a CAUSE for the anomalies in the CMBR. But if we follow the EllieArroway School of Cosmology, we can just say that some things don't need a cause and forget the whole thing. Wink

Just my thoughts so far but I AM open to the idea of multi-verses. In fact, I think it would be cool if it were true. But for now, I will keep my Skeptic's hat firmly in place and choose to believe things based on evidence and not blind faith. Smile

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2326869/Is-universe-merely-billions-Evidence-existence-multiverse-revealed-time-cosmic-map.html

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