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Philosophy/religion

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YEC 2

999 replies

Januarymadness · 24/04/2013 21:05

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 05/05/2013 08:52

And I completely agree with AgeofReason on the subject of atheists and morality. Best seems to have bought into the very mistaken idea that morality can only come from religion.

I think that Sam Harris has some interesting thoughts on the subject of the 'atheist' label too.

sieglinde · 05/05/2013 10:21

*Backonly briefly said This one doesn't spell out the child's fate, but clearly not heaven.

the baptism must be carried out quickly, so that the child does not die without Baptism and is deprived from entry or sight of the Kingdom, according to the words of our beloved Savior (John 3) That was the problem St Augustine had in the 5th century and so he decided that infants went to hell. He did hope they were punished less, but couldn't show that was true. He was sure they went to hell.*

You guys need to go and read/reread Dante. In his work limbo is a kind of garden suburb of hell - those who go there do miss out on heaven, but are NOT [punished or tormented in any way. It comes over a bit like an Oxbridge college - lots of people politely arguing on the lawns.

So what the RC church and Augustine said is that you miss the joy of heaven, but ABSOLUTELY NO fiery furnaces.

Which is also what I said. Which is also what Hitchens doesn't get. I know it's kinda subtle, but I hope it's now clear.

sieglinde · 05/05/2013 10:31

Best asks for a link on the 'sale' of indulgences; here are several:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/286800/indulgence - this one is quite vehemently Protestant. So as a counterweight

www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm and www.newadvent.org/cathen/07788a.htm

All these carefully define indulgence and explain why it has nothing to do with forgiveness.

I think it's fair to say that most non-RCs find our idea that THINGS can carry spiritual weight the oddest thing about us. (Why don't we all bang on about relics and the sellout tour of St Therese of Liseux's arm in 2009?) But it's just that I love. Our bodies ARE us, the material world is us. Fossils matter, and so do bees and plants. The Incarnation is just that - God made FLESH.

Januarymadness · 05/05/2013 11:23

please don't use Occams razor to support one argument and completely dismiss it for anothwr. It makes my teeth itch.

In my opinion morality based on fear of retribution is no morality at all. I have a belief in human nature that the vast majority of people are inherently good, if maybe a little selfish.

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 05/05/2013 12:36

Best: But if we are measuring by God's standards, we must understand how He sees us - not how we see ourselves. Isaiah 64:6 says all of our good deeds are like filthy rags to God.

I meant to ask this yesterday -Could you (or anyone else) please tell me how you interpret that bible quote?

It's interesting that you say about measuring by god's standards- I suppose the word of the bible tells you what god's standards are? It must be quite a job, given that the bible is so contradictory, and that slavery seems to be ok, as does the slaughter of whole towns.

AgeofReason · 05/05/2013 13:37

Actually Sabrina, it's not that big a problem for Best. He can excuse away stuff so fast it'll make yer head spin! Let's see now... you're misinterpreting it, it's changed in the NT, it's just a recording of historical events, you get the idea. My personal favorite is how he exempts God from his idea of objective morality! What do I mean by this, you ask? Well, first of all, Best has made it fairly clear that he sees the killing of babies/children as objectively wrong. Next, let's pretend that tomorrow God decides that every child under the age of 3yrs has to die, and so kills them all. Has God done a bad thing? Not according to Best! God, being God, can give life and thus take life, at a whim. No moral issues at all!

Personally, I have a couple of problems with this. One being that if morality is truly objective, then even God should be subject to it. The other is, if the above is false, then how can he (or anyone else) make the claim that God is good, just, fair, loving, or whatever else?? I mean take good, for example. It's a fairly subjective term, granted, but also used in contrast with bad. But if any and all possible actions are labeled good, then suddenly bad loses all meaning! And so does good!

One last thing... I'm very tired as I write this, so if my thinking has gone off the rails, then please straighten me out! Thanx.

sieglinde · 05/05/2013 14:50

Oh, God. Now we have Sam Harris as well. Happy Family Idiots set now complete.

On Hitchens' 10 commandments:
Here they are, and they are a mix of the unnecessary, the smug, and the feeble. They pretty much illustrate his shallowness.

Do not condemn people on the basis of their ethnicity or their color. Do not ever even think of using people as private property.

Doh.

Despise those who use violence or the threat of it in sexual relations.

Unless they like it.

Hide your face and weep if you dare to harm a child.

But let's not define harm. Let's not say that paying people a dollar a day will harm their children.

Do not condemn people for their inborn nature. ("Why would God create so many homosexuals, only to torture and destroy them?")

Does he mean that if gay people CHOOSE THEIR SEXUALITY that it's ok to condemn them? Because I don't bloody think so, mate.

Be aware that you, too, are an animal, and dependent on the web of nature. Try to think and act accordingly.

What if what I think is about what's best for moi?

Do not imagine you can avoid judgment if you rob people [by lying to them] rather than with a knife.

Whose judgement, Chris?

Turn off that fucking cell phone.

Because you working mother bitches with a babysitter shouldn't disturb my quiet lunch.

Denounce all jihadists and crusaders for what they are: psychopathic criminals with ugly delusions and terrible sexual repressions.

And I, Hitchens, know this because I am omniscient. I have studied the inner workings of the minds of medieval knights...

Reject any faith if their commandments contradict any of the above.

Even the one with the cellphones?

So this is truly a decalogue for the 21st century. Nothing WHATEVER to stop me setting up my cheap garment factory in Bangladesh and staffing it with people paid a bowl of rice a day. I don't own them, so I am obeying Commandment #2. They are not damaging the environment. They are not homophobic. They are not being raped. Their children... oh, well, that's not really my problem.

SHUDDER. He honestly creeps me right out. Only Creepy Grayling is scarier.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 05/05/2013 14:54

Indeed, one could argue that any bad happening/deed was god's will and so justified, or even good: shouting 'god is great' prior to blowing oneself up, and any surrounding bystanders, being just one of them.

Peter Sutcliffe thought that god was telling him to go out and murder prostitutes - was that god's will? His experience of god talking to him was probably as 'real' to him as anyone else's 'religious' experience. And certainly in the bible many, many people were killed as part of god's mysterious plan. I wonder how one is to distinguish between criminal insanity and actually doing god's bidding?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 05/05/2013 14:56

Glad he amused you sieg.

Let's get back to all the good those Magdelene Orphanage nuns did, eh?

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 05/05/2013 16:42

On Hitchens' 10 commandments: Here they are, and they are a mix of the unnecessary, the smug, and the feeble. They pretty much illustrate his shallowness.

As opposed to the solid commandments chiseled into stones by a man up a hill behind a bush. At least they're a bit more relevant to the real world.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Well, that's a good opening move. Only listen to me because everyone else is wrong.

2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

More of the same, only worship me. Solid arguing there god. Oh, and don't draw pictures of fish.

3.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Got an ego trip building here. Don't say anything nasty about me or I'll think of you as guilty forever. So far we have nothing about morality, just how God is selfish, jealous, petty and domineering.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Everyone who works in Tesco is buggered then. Still no moral words and we're almost half way through. Although, this is a mighty convenient way for people to have an excuse not to work.

5.Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Ahhh! The first bit of morality. And it's to tell you to honour your parents. Hardly ground breaking stuff. But wait... God throws in a bit of 'modesty' again by reminding you that he made the the world and if you don't do what he says, your days will be numbered.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

Nice and succinct. But a bit black and white for my liking.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Fair enough.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

Again, a bit black and white. Thinking about the starving baby and stealing milk analogy.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

But as long as they don't live next to you it's ok......

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Thought crime. You can't even think about wanting to have something which someone else has. Apple might have something to say about that, would make their marketing quite tricky. It's just ludicrous.

Honestly, anyone who thinks that these are the fundamental rules for life...... well..... I just don't the have the words

sieglinde · 05/05/2013 16:42

Sabrina, why do you do this?

Finding Hitchens shallow does not make me a fan of the Magdalene homes - why would it? I've always been perfectly willing to agree that the RC church is not composed of angels.

So? We're agreed on that - it doesn't make CH's decalogue any less amoral or nauseating.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 05/05/2013 16:52

Does he mean that if gay people CHOOSE THEIR SEXUALITY that it's ok to condemn them? Because I don't bloody think so, mate.

Apart from the fact he doesn't say anything about chosen sexuality (you've just gone and made an incorrect assumption), I don't think anyone actually chooses their sexuality, you are what you are. Who sits down one day and says "hmmm, you know, I think I'll be heterosexual from now on". Please. You're embarrassing yourself.

sieglinde · 05/05/2013 17:06

Pedro, Hitchens specifically says 'inborn'.

Your response on the actual decalogue is so not apropos. I posted on Hitchens's silly list because the actual decalogue has been critiqued so many times, and Hitchens' own banalities are themselves such a critique.

It's hard to know where to begin, but let's start here.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. But as long as they don't live next to you it's ok......

You really think 'neighbour' means someone who lives next door? Shock. You might recall the story of the Good Samaritan, which Jesus tells in response to the question 'who is my neighbour'?

It's also interesting that you don't see your obedience, even enslavement to commerce - Tesco, Apple - as a problem. Presumably it's also not a problem for you if Apple uses slave labourers, or if Tesco violates its employees' rights by compelling them to work on the sabbath? At anyrate, not a problem in comparison with the wrongdoing of organised religion...? I assume this is the real world to which Hitchens is so relevant? if so I agree - this is exactly the shallow, conscienceless and materialistic world for which he writes.

EllieArroway · 05/05/2013 18:02

Do not condemn people on the basis of their ethnicity or their colour. Do not ever even think of using people as private property
Doh

Really? "Doh"? Yes, I agree it's obvious - so obvious it seems odd that a book written/inspired by the omnipotent creator of the universe designed to give us moral guidelines fails to mention either. Actually, it condones both slavery and racism. Of course, coveting your neighbours ass is far more morally suspect, huh? Hmm

Despise those who use violence or the threat of it in sexual relations
Unless they like it

Putting words in people's mouths is not cool, particularly when they are dead. Please don't do that, Sieglinde. It says more about you than it does about Hitchens. The Bible is ambivalent about rape too, by the way - the guy gets "punished" by having to marry the victim.

Hide your face and weep if you dare to harm a child
But let's not define harm. Let's not say that paying people a dollar a day will harm their children

You need "harm" defined for you before you'll get on board with this one? And do you have evidence that Hitchens specifically excluded slave wages in the third world in this harm to children? I doubt it - so your "point" manages to be non-existent.

Do not condemn people for their inborn nature. ("Why would God create so many homosexuals, only to torture and destroy them?")
Does he mean that if gay people CHOOSE THEIR SEXUALITY that it's ok to condemn them? Because I don't bloody think so, mate

You know perfectly well that's not what he's saying. What a fucking stupid remark. Genuinely stunned that you can misinterpret his comment like this. It's childish, irrelevant and, frankly, bizarre.

Be aware that you, too, are an animal, and dependent on the web of nature. Try to think and act accordingly
What if what I think is about what's best for moi?

You're quite entitled to do that - but don't forget you're part of a herd too, and have a responsibility to other lifeforms too. Damn obvious, I would have thought. Atheists generally don't need a book of bronze age ramblings to remember this.

Are you seriously suggesting that you never, ever, ever think about what's best for you? Never? I don't believe you. We all do - and we balance that with our own needs.

Do not imagine you can avoid judgment if you rob people [by lying to them] rather than with a knife
Whose judgement, Chris?
Erm....other people? The courts?

Turn off that fucking cell phone
Because you working mother bitches with a babysitter shouldn't disturb my quiet lunch

Right. Because they are the only people who use cell phones. Ever. Good point not. He's making the point that we should be considerate of others. Astonished that you need that pointing out.

Denounce all jihadists and crusaders for what they are: psychopathic criminals with ugly delusions and terrible sexual repressions
And I, Hitchens, know this because I am omniscient. I have studied the inner workings of the minds of medieval knights...

Anyone who goes about murdering, torturing and raping others because they think they have a mandate from some god is a fucking nutter. You don't need to be omniscient to figure that one out. You don't even need to be that smart.

Reject any faith if their commandments contradict any of the above
Even the one with the cellphones?

Any faith that tells you not to be considerate of others should be rejected, yes.

Blimey. And you think Hitchens was "shallow" and Harris is an "idiot"?

Just...................OK.

Hmm
EllieArroway · 05/05/2013 18:06

Oh - and why are you telling people to read Dante? The Inferno is a work of fiction. Most people don't get their facts from fiction....

Oh wait.

Most sensible people don't, anyway. Ahem.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 05/05/2013 18:38

Grin @ Most people don't get their facts from fiction....

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 05/05/2013 18:47

sieg - I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of those who wish to interpret the bible literally. That's all.

I didn't accuse you personally of being a fan of the Magdalene nuns, but it is beyond me that so many people will call themselves part of a religion that condoned and supported these appalling institutions and their treatment of so-called 'fallen' women. And then claim that this is a 'loving' religion. It's not - this is not the only example of their religiously moralistic rules causing suffering.

EllieArroway · 05/05/2013 19:01

Hi Best

I certainly have never said anything like that and don't have that attitude

Yes, you have. You were wondering why certain world class Christian biologists accepted evolution, and suggested it was because they didn't really understand it. Please don't make me go back and quote that bit at you again.

Hi Ellie. Welcome back. I've missed you. I didn't say I wouldn't talk to you. Only that I wouldn't respond to abuse. I'm surprised you waited so long to come back

Awww...well, it's always nice to be missed. I was aware that you were back on the thread, but real life prevented me getting involved before now.

I don't accept that using a swear word is akin to abusing you, but if it really bothers you that much, fine. When I talk to you, I shall not swear.

I agree with much of your assessment of the three arguments and find your refutations to be well-thought out and logically sound. I feel that if I were an atheist, this is precisely the case I would make against the existence God

And there's your first mistake. My objections to your arguments do not "disprove" god, and are not meant to. They just show that your "evidences" are logically unsound. And, the objections I'm making are NOT because I am an atheist, they are because they are wrong.

I'll just make a few comments on parts I disagree with given my worldview

Fine. But another mistake. Your worldview and my worldview should be irrelevant to the matter entirely. As we have previously agreed, true is true is true (my old lecturer, remember?). Logic begins with a premise that we must both accept to be true if the argument is to be considered logically sound in any meaningful way. If I can show that your premise is flawed then your argument must fail. (Yes, I know that logic is more complicated than this but I'm not sure we really need to get into that right now).

I can show that in all three cases, either that your initial premise is flawed, or that you've made an unwarranted an illogical assumption somewhere along the way.

I know it doesn't always seem that way Wink, but we do in fact occupy the same world, Best. What's true for you is true for me.

So....

Objections to Kalam

There is evidence that even a multi-verse would require an absolute beginning

What's that got to do with anything. You are amazingly obsessed with the multiverse and I'm not sure why. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my objection to your argument - you are leapfrogging head.

Everything that begins to exist has a cause

By everything here you mean everything we can experience and see. Yes? I agree. That's our general, everyday experience of how the universe works.

But.....again, where do we place the beginning of anything? We agree that everything we see is a reconfiguration of matter - so is that what you're saying about the universe? If not, then this is an equivocation - a logical fallacy of not comparing like with like.

To be logically sound, you have to say...

Everything that begins to exist is a reconfiguration of existing matter
The universe began to exist
The universe is therefore a reconfiguration of existing matter

Are you saying that, then? If not - why not? If you're not saying that, then why are you comparing two things that are manifestly NOT alike?

Of course, you are also failing to take into account QM, which is where a physicist would take issue with you. Modern science strongly suggests that "Everything that begins to exist is a reconfiguration of existing matter" since that simply does not appear to be the case in the sub-atomic arena.

Most things that begin to exist DO have a cause, that's why science spends so much time looking for causes, as you have rightly pointed out. But it's absolutely NOT true to use the term "Everything", because QM suggests otherwise. And if we have anything within our natural universe that does not require a cause, then you cannot continue with your argument because your premise is not just flawed, it's wrong.

I'll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about quantum mechanics but I just don't find it reasonable or credible to deny the law of causality upon which all science is based

Well, you be the first to admit that, and I'll be the second - but it doesn't matter. The very fact that plausible models & equations can be constructed by experts to suggest this possibility means exactly that - that it's a possibility. So your premise is just wrong - you would need to show that it's impossible to continue. And you can't. You can't even show that it's likely to be true.

And it's not a God-of-the-gaps situation. You are advancing an Argument from Ignorance (or Personal Incredulity, which seems a nicer way to put it). You are saying that you, personally, cannot understand how anything can violate cause and effect so you're going to proceed on the assumption that QM doesn't. You're wrong to do that and it's bad, bad logic to try.

What mystery is that? Something must be eternal and science shows it's not the universe. To invoke trillions of unseen, unknown, untestable universes to avoid one God violates Occam's Razor so I go with the simpler of the two hypotheses

Something must be eternal? Why? What logic gets you there? And I think Icbineg (a physicist, don't forget) quite clearly explained to both of us that the universe can be (and probably is) infinite.

Again with the multiverse? What's that got to do with anything? And, by the way, it doesn't violate Occam's Razar to postulate a more complicated solution if that's what the observations suggest. "All things being equal, the simplEST explanation tends to be correct". This doesn't mean that the most simple explanation possible is always going to be correct no matter what.

Quote-mining is to take someone out of context and to misrepresent their actual intent. Since I did not do that, it cannot be classified as quote-mining and frankly, I resent the implication. Remember that the one making the claim bears the burden of proof

Well, you're certainly not averse to a little quote-mining, as we saw in the previous thread. Whether that was deliberate on your part or you just didn't check your sources properly - either way, it's bad form.

But - you know what? In this instance, you're right. You weren't quote mining - they really said what they said, and meant what you say they meant.

But really - it's a bit ridiculous, don't you think, to dredge up Elizabethan scientists (if we can call them that) to support your claims. They'd have agreed with you wholeheartedly, I'm certain - BECAUSE they lived before modern physics. Find me a modern physicist that says the same thing and I'll look into it. The fact that you've relied on people who lived 500 odd years ago suggests to me that you haven't found anyone more recent - and that's a bit of a problem, isn't it?

Have exhausted myself. I'll address the rest either later or tomorrow.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 05/05/2013 19:27

Pedro, Hitchens specifically says 'inborn'.

Exactly, he makes no reference to chosen and you are wrong to assume this means that he feels the opposite for chosen. Not sure of your point.

Your response on the actual decalogue is so not apropos. I posted on Hitchens's silly list because the actual decalogue has been critiqued so many times, and Hitchens' own banalities are themselves such a critique.

So the problem is what?

You really think 'neighbour' means someone who lives next door?

Well obviously not. Gosh. But are you suggesting that your neighbours are everybody? Because if you are then god should have said everybody and if you're not then god has missed a trick.

It's also interesting that you don't see your obedience, even enslavement to commerce - Tesco, Apple - as a problem. Presumably it's also not a problem for you if Apple uses slave labourers, or if Tesco violates its employees' rights by compelling them to work on the sabbath?

I have no issue whatsoever with Tesco employees working on a Sunday. It meant I could do my weekly shop today. Still a bit miffed that they close early on Sundays though. Why should it be any different to any other day?

Slave labour is a different thing entirely though and I'm not sure why you would combine the two.

At anyrate, not a problem in comparison with the wrongdoing of organised religion...?

What, working in a Sunday? No, certainly not even close to religious atrocities.

I assume this is the real world to which Hitchens is so relevant? if so I agree - this is exactly the shallow, conscienceless and materialistic world for which he writes.

Shallow like Christianity, conscienceless like one who relies on a god for their morality and materialistic like the richest organisation in the world (that's the RC church by the way). Yes, you are precisely who he writes for. I read him because I enjoy his writing, but it's not me he was trying to convince.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 05/05/2013 20:45

Sieg, you are wrong to pick up on, and twist, what CH said on homosexuality. Like Pedro and Ellie, I don't know what you are trying to say. CH has consistently criticised the RC church for their condemnation of homosexuality. Full stop.

He has said he believes homosexuality to be not just a type of sex, but an expression of love. He spoke with great respect about his friendship with Stephen Fry at the Intelligence Squared Debate. From what I've read/seen of him, he believed that sexuality is innate, not a 'choice,' hence his use of the word 'inborn' - it's a perfectly acceptable and accepted theory - with a growing body of genetic evidence. He was an advocate of gay rights and gay marriage.

Whereas, the catholic church, er, isn't.

BestValue · 06/05/2013 00:20

"Given my worldview" No! Given my morality!"

Your morality is a part of your worldview.

"Believe it or not atheists have morals - and yes, I'm aware that you didn't come out and say exactly that."

Yes. In fact, you know I say EXACTLY the opposite - that atheists DO have morals. That's a straw man that atheists can never seem to stop making. No one - I repeat NO ONE - EVER claims that atheists don't have morals.

"It is my morality that would inform me that your actions were wrong and deserving of punishment, morals that I learned from my parents, my society, and moral conclusions that I have reached on my own."

Yes, because you were raised in a Christian society. But you could not expect ME (or at least someone from a different culture) to abide by YOUR MORAL code. If you did, you would be acting inconsistently with your worldview.

"logically consistent atheist" You have no idea how offensive I find this!"

Sorry but you'll just have to get used to it. I unapologetically use that phrase all the time. I don't call people names but I do expect everyone - not just atheists - to be logically consistent. It's not an insult. It's an observation. I'm not even saying they are not thinking logically. I'm saying their behaviour or beliefs are inconsistent with their claims. Like an atheist who attends church regularly. Or an animal lover who abuses his dog. Or a person on a diet who orders a Big Mac, large fries and a diet Coke.

"Your thread of logic probably goes something like this...
A) Atheists don't believe in god(s) therefore,
B) they don't accept objective morality (not necessarily so), therefore,
C) since A is true, whatever morals Atheists claim to have, they are in fact baseless. Moreover, they (atheists) forfeit any right to make moral judgements about anyone else.

That about sums it up. I'm clearly not saying people don't have a right to their opinion but if they are going to judge others, I am justified in asking them on what basis they do so. If it is merely their opinion, why should anyone else care? If it is merely the consensus of their culture, why should someone from another culture care?

This is why, if I were an atheist, I would appeal to human evolution for morality. It is as close to a moral standard as we can get. Of course, I would hope that I would be a logically consistent atheist. Therefore, although I might believe rape and murder are wrong for me personally, I would hope that, because we see it in the animal kingdom, I would not judge those who do not share my view.

"This is all sorts of wrong. Atheists do have a basis for their morality, the same basis as everyone else in fact!"

And where do you believe that is - culture, evolution or somewhere else?

"Well, in Sparta they used to kill babies that they deemed too weak or deformed - by throwing them over a cliff no less!"

Right. And you have no problem with that (or shouldn't), right? What possible right could people in the 21st century have to judge people of a different culture two millennia before?

"And you've got it backwards by the way... you claim doesn't stand until someone can show where your wrong - your claim will stand when you can show evidence for it!"

"Exhibit A" is how hard you are fighting to have your cake and eat it too.

BestValue · 06/05/2013 00:32

"Best, you have a very different interpretation of the christian hell than the one I was taught as a child - including teachings from the pulpit during the unfortunate instances I was made to go to church, and in religious studies at school. A dictionary definition of hell is 'a place of eternal torture and punishment in an afterlife.'"

Yes I do Sabrina. Yours is the one I believed for about 43 years. But I don't go by a dictionary's definition that was probably written a few centuries ago. I go by the Bible's definition in the Original Hebrew and Greek. I'll take Jesus' word over Noah Webster's on matters of the afterlife. ;^)

"This is concept that may have been 'softened' by many christian leaders in recent years, in our far more socially liberal western society, as Best has just done above -'oh, it's not eternal punishment, it's eternal punishing confused Oh that's ok then."

No. If that were true, I would reject it for the very same reason I reject compromising God's Word with notions of evolution and long ages. I'm being consistent right across the board. This is not a NEW view but the ORIGINAL view of he Church.

"The concept of hell was invented by man to scare people into behaving themselves. Teaching children that hell is a real place, in the absence of any proof that it actually exists, frightens them."

Yup. The truth actually far better.

"This is an amazing speech by Sam Harris on the sheer hypocrisy of the christian idea of heaven, hell and redemption. I agree with him wholeheartedly."

Can you link to it?

"One quote that stays with me from his speech is: "Nine million children die every year before the age of five....Any god who would allow children, by the millions, to suffer and die in this way, and their parents to suffer and grieve in this way, either can do nothing to help them, or doesn't care to. He is either impotent or evil.""

That's merely a re-statement of Epicurus who put it more eloquently:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Epicurus ? Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

It's kind of an odd thing for Harris to say because in the atheist's worldview, evil and good do not exist. The concepts are meaningless.

BestValue · 06/05/2013 00:38

"And I completely agree with AgeofReason on the subject of atheists and morality. Best seems to have bought into the very mistaken idea that morality can only come from religion."

Not at all. In fact, I repeatedly say just the opposite - even on national TV. But for that morality to be OBJECTIVE - meaning something is wrong whether anyone thinks so or not - we must appeal to a standard which transcends humanity. Culture won't do it. Evolution might - although as Dawkins admits, that morality would be horrific. Barring that, we are left only with God. This argument is what lead CS Lewis and Francis Collins from atheism to Christianity later in life.

BestValue · 06/05/2013 00:46

Thanks for the links, sieg. I'll throw them on my Kindle for some bedtime reading. :^)

BestValue · 06/05/2013 00:54

"please don't use Occams razor to support one argument and completely dismiss it for anothwr. It makes my teeth itch."

I'm lost. Tell me where you would like m to use it where you think I dismissed it. My understanding was that, in the first thread, you accused me of using it when I didn't and I told you where I use it. Then, on this thread, when I used it where I said I used it, you reprimanded me and I had to correct you. See why I'm confused?

"In my opinion morality based on fear of retribution is no morality at all."

I agree. Christians don't do good things out of hope of reward or fear of retribution. They do good things because they believe they are RIGHT thing to do. This is a straw man invented by (I believe) Hitchens. If someone has an earlier source for this argument, please correct me.