I have the 'woo' gene, do you?

[IndigoBarbie]

:) A nicely coined phrase from another thread. I have it, I do believe [bugrin]

No hallucinations are not pedro your bang on there.

Have i missed something ? (as cote so politely suggested)

My dad was a very intelligent, wise and good honest man, I want to stress this to give you a little of what he was like so some of you don't think this is a load of rubbish

Even intelligent, wise, honest men can make mistakes, sugar.

Our eyes can't actually "see" anything as such - they merely collect light & convert it into electrical impulses. Our brains use that information to construct an image for us. Sometimes - quite often, actually - we "see" something that our brains can't make immediate sense of so it constructs an image in our minds. If we don't have the opportunity to go back and ascertain properly what we actually saw, then the image of what we thought it was remains.

I don't doubt your Dad saw something, it may even have been reminiscent of a human shape - but it could have been anything. It could even have actually been a woman/man jumping off the wall but who made a hasty retreat without your Dad seeing - a burglar?

In any event, the fact is that any and all rational explanations that don't appeal to the supernatural are, literally, trillions of times more likely than that the spirit of a dead person jumped off a wall in front of a car.

And, sorry, who exactly saw your Grandad sitting in a chair at the same time he was in the kitchen? From what you've said, it doesn't sound like it was either your Dad or Grandad - a neighbour passing the window?

You seem to think (as most people do) that anyone trying to present a rational explanation thinks that your Dad must be a deluded liar. Not so. Just a mistaken one.

Indigo Yes, eyes are organs that collect light that the brain can use to create an image. Video cameras do the same thing. Anything you can see, so can a video camera. This is simple physics.

Of course, the one thing a camera can't pick up is what is going on in your imagination, which is clearly where these walking dead people you can see reside.

We can still see images when we shut our eyes because our eyelids are not made of steel - some light filters through. And we can see imaginary images because our brain does not have to have the direct input of light to be able to construct an image.

Tell you what - why don't you tell your ghost friends to go and talk to a scientist? Odd that they never do that - are they scared of scientists? It's the very first thing I'd do if I found that I'd somehow survived my own death.

I haven't taken anything personally. I don't believe you are being truthful - and if I genuinely thought you could actually see ghosts walking next to you I'd very concerned for your mental health. Really.

Thanks Ellie, I was about to respond to both points with something similar but I think you've pretty much covered what I had!

ellie firstly my dad wasn't a mistaken liar, he told what he saw, a woman falling from the high walls of the castle.
Secondly oh and sorry, yes it was my dad that went into the kitchen and saw my grandads double at the kitchen sink, if it was a neighbour passing, and told us that, I would assume she needed her eyes tested, also it wouldn't be very 'woo' would it ?
This thread is about anyone who feels they have seen or have the ability to, not about someone giving them another explanation or patter, and disrespectful attitude.
You can see your phone, I pad in front of you now, now I'm going to say no you can't, your imagining it, how rude am I !

For anyone who has seen something it can be as clear as just that, looking at what's in your hand, and very real.

Accept it, if you or anyone else has never experienced it, then kindly shut up with your patter.

Ellie didn't call your dad a liar Twosugars; she suggested he might have been mistaken and she did so politely. She is entitled to give her opinion and hasn't been rude to you - this is an open forum after all.

Telling her to shut up is out of order, frankly.

Two sugars So you're not even bothering to actually read my post and see the bit where I said that your Dad could simply be mistaken and NOT a liar.

Charming.

Accept it, if you or anyone else has never experienced it, then kindly shut up with your patter

Says it all really. If your Dad was so intelligent, what happened to you?

Grow up a little, eh?

Thanks, Sunny.

I am a real sceptic and a rationalist but have had a couple of experiences I just can't explain

I'm being perfectly honest ellie as to how I feel when I see posts from yourself and others doubting people's experiences.

I'm being blunt I know, but better than politely patronising.
You said he wasn't a deluded liar, just a mistaken one.
Can I just ask though how you feel you can say that ? it's like your telling me, that DID NOT happen. THAT is rude IMO, I was simply and rudely telling you to shut up, with your opinion of how i shouldnt believe,and insulting my intelligence for not agreeing with you.

I am slightly astonished at you sugars

I said: "I don't doubt your Dad saw something,"

I'll say it again.....I don't doubt your Dad saw something

....at no point whatsoever did I say, or imply, that he was a liar. Mistaken does not equal liar.

You are not being "blunt" - you are being dishonest. And rather ignorant.

My religious belief is in the existence of a veil, and things are intentionally hidden from us the vast majority of the time

That reminds me of Plato and his "Cave analogy", night. (Think it was Plato). He believed we were like beings chained up in a cave, unable to look outside but only being able to see reality through the shadows it casts on a wall.

Not saying I buy it personally but it's an interesting thing to ponder.

There's a huge difference between seeing someone jump off a castle and then disappear and seeing your phone in your hand (apart from the castle incident being a second hand story as so often they are).

My phone is here, I can put it down and pick it up again later, it's still here. I can see it by its reflection of light into my eyes, I can feel it through the miracle of atomic interaction. I can smell it, I can hear it when it rings. I can measure all of these properties using scientific instruments, other people can also detect all these properties. The existence of my phone is as real as my own existence (however you may wish to define that).

One person thinking they saw something or having an hallucination or mistaking something for something else, briefly, with no one else around and no ability to replicate the experience is completely different.

Of course those circumstances alone don't invalidate what someone may have seen, but when what they think they have seen has supernatural consequences, it makes it far less plausible.

What I'm saying pedro is when people are sharing their experiences, it is what they believe happened becsuse of what they have seen was right there infront of them, as real as what you can see right now.
Or what they have heard, or believe, they have faith in.

Some posters are just dismissing this completely because its not what they believe.

My df had no belief in anything woo, whatsoever, and he was the last person I would expect to tell me what he experienced.

What does anyone think about inherited memory in all this?

An example: my DD at two to three years old and only just speaking went along a row of family photos on her great aunts sideboard. It was her first visit there and hadn't spent enough time with anyone in the family to have filled her in on who was who. So she went along the row of pics saying 'Nana,Uncle Fred,Mummy and Daddy etc etc.' She then came to a pic of my Uncle who had died young - lets call him Tom - and some 15 years or so before she was born and without hesitation she said 'Uncle Tom'. (he would've been her Gt Uncle obv.}
My aunt who was a bit 'woo' herself it has to be said, said to her 'Oh l think you mean 'Uncle 'Tom' (my brother named after him} who lives at your nan and grandads'
'No' said my DD in a quite affronted little voice - 'Not that Uncle Tom - the one who lived here - he sat there (points to my late Uncle Toms favourite armchair}.
A few years later she went along the same row of photos and had no clue as to who he was.

I mean do we inherit memories,knowledge etc - is that possible? It is one of only two solutions l can come up with the other being that children have fantastic imaginations and therefore endless ability to 'make things up' (l wouldn't call it lying at that age}to 'defend' their stories. So maybe she did mistake him for his younger namesake and then when queried didn't want to be wrong so made up the bit about where he sat and by some fluke just picked the right chair.

As I said Twosugars I think you were rude to Ellie and I think you should apologise. She politely disagreed with your father's interpretation of events.

sunny I agree.

sudaname Children come out with all sorts of stuff, some of it scarily accurate, some of it.... well, not so much. But they also soak up information like a sponge. So your DD could quite feasibly have heard the name used by the adults, used the name in the absence of anything better because she actually has an uncle Tom (which is likely to be a huge factor in this), perhaps simply got lucky!

I don't think there's anything there which would suggest inherited memory, especially as when older couldn't identify him. I think your last suggestion is probably the most likely though.

ellie I am actually very sorry. I feel quite ashamed saying that to you ?

Some posters are just dismissing this completely because its not what they believe.

Actually, I don't think they are. They (and I) are simply suggesting that there are plenty of more rational explanations (especially in the absence of a first hand account here) for the 'experience' described and using that to explain why they don't believe it has supernatural connotations.

Are you going to apologise to me now for your dishonest misrepresentation of what I said sugar?

Sudaname Well, the instincts that we're born with are a kind of inherited knowledge. But it's hard to see how actual memories clear enough to identify someone's face could be passed from generation to generation. Unless it has something to do with DNA.

The most likely explanation is that she was being imaginative, as we know children are - with a dose of coincidence in there too. In other words, she'd heard the phrase "Uncle Tom" somewhere recently, even if not in relation to her actual, dead Uncle Tom. There are lots of Uncle Toms in the world. I have one myself.

Oh - Xpost.

Apology accepted. Thank you :)

Twosugars

:)

Yes probably Pedro but it was at the time quite 'wooo' and made the old hairs stand up on the back of ones neck l must say.

It's only later on and over the years that logic has taken over and l have come up with a more rational explanation as l am more a sceptic but keep a little bit of open mind on some things - inherited memory being one of them as there are many parts of the brain we don't fully understand so it is possible l suppose.

A French teacher - very old and very wooo type lady once told me 'l had used that language before ' as l took to it so well, despite being terrible at other languages and lazy but l just seemed to effortlessly learn it as though indeed l did already know it. I later found out my DF was of French background and l was a bit 'woooo' about that and thinking is it possible my descendants had passed this language down to me.

But then my logical head got the better of me and l thought it's all just coincidence - my father was of French descent - fine - nothing woooo in that and l just happened to be good at picking up languages but only picked up the one where l really liked the teacher (hated the German teacher so that probably closed my mind to learning it) and it wasn't impossibly difficult or pointless unless you're going into medicine maybe - like Latin the only other language we did.

Wish l was wooo- it's quite boring being logical.

Yes sunny why not