The Muslim Tearoom

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

Al-Halim = The Forebearing One! Means a sense of humour is at least tolerated!

Cuddled, missed prayers can be made up later, but within reason (you can't purposely skip four set of prayers and make them all up beofre night prayers), usually if one is away from home there is a very shortened version of whichever prayer is scheduled for that time.

One of the reasons for praying five times a day is to make one stop and turn to god during periods of the day, helps you remain God conscious I suppose.

I've prayed in the unlikliest of places, work common rooms, parks (my favourite), beaches, wherever. Takes five minutes max.

Clearly, joking is allowed, so long as no harm is caused to others and there is no blasphemy involved.

There's a really hadith about a companion of the Prophet (saw) who was known for his practical jokes. It's too long to type out I'll link it, one of the imams tells it really well.

How old is everyone's kids anyway? Mine's 8 months old (boy). We're Nottingham based.

Crescent, when we suffer a setback we say the prayer often said on hearing of a death;
'Surely to Allah we belong to him we must return' Altho mostly its just 'Inna lillah !!!' 'surely to Allah we belong', happens regularly during the school run missed bus scenario....we could really just get up slightly earlier, but I like to live dnagerously!

Clearly, I have two girls 10 and 8.5.

""innate knowledge" (fitra for all the Arabic fans out there). Fitra explains lots of stuff... it explains why people are so shocked by violence, because deep down inside you "know" it's wrong"

Or, more likely, we are shocked by violence because we can imagine it happening to us or our loved ones and how horrible that would be.

"same with lots of the ethical/moral "gut feelings" we tend to have"

I doubt that very much, not least because (1) morals change over time and (2) they vary across different cultures.

We find cannibalism repulsive, but there are and have been cultures of people who practice it regularly. Homosexuality used to be something they burned or people for, but these days it's quite OK. I don't know how you can support this allegation that there is a set of unchanging "innate" set of morals that all humans share.

"Interestingly it fills the niche in Arabic philosophical thought occupied by Occam's razor and other such tests and goes some way to explain the gradual shift in global religious practices from polytheism (pick an ancient civilization) to monotheism. "

I don't see how this sentence follows the one above, claiming that there is a set of innate morals in all humans, whenever/wherever they are/were born.

But anyway...

What is more interesting is how you feel about the more recent shift in global religious practices - from monotheism towards agnosticism and atheism.

What does that say about your belief in unchanging inner morals and ethics?

" isnt that the argument also of people who say 'there is no need for a morality from above' "

I haven't heard any such argument.

Personally, the one time I said "there is no need for morality from above..." I finished that sentence with "... because our parents do a good enough job of teaching us right from wrong". I was about 12 and this was to my poor long-suffering RE teacher

If asked these days, I wouldn't even bother with whether or not there is a "need". I would say that there just isn't any set of morals that people are & always were born with. As I've said before:

(1) Morals have changed over time

and

(2) Morals vary between cultures of even the same time

Therefore, there is no "innate knowledge" of unchanging morals.

"i thought religious practise was up on the whole, not just for islam but other religions in other parts of the world?"

Think again

Here is a large scale Gallup worldwide, which shows a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

Current data shows that the number of people worldwide who call themselves religious is now 59%, 23% saying they are not religious, while 13% self-identify as atheist. This is a 9% decrease for those claiming to be religious and a 3% increase for those saying they are atheists.

It doesn't look like religious practice is increasing globally at all.

"and were your parents born with that?"

They wouldn't have to, because their parents would have taught them about right and wrong.

I would actually be surprised to hear that any parent would believe children are born with moral values. Haven't all of us had to tell them over and over again that they shouldn't snatch, hit, or otherwise hurt others, especially those smaller than them? Do any of you really believe that your children were born knowing all that, plus that they shouldn't lower their knickers and show their private parts to the world? (ClearlyDad - Give it time, you will learn, too )

"i wonder what it would look like if it was muslim specific only"

I wouldn't be surprised if poll results are slightly skewed towards religiousity in Muslim countries, where people would be used to representing themselves as more religious than they actually are, due to social stigma.

I was happy to see that 73% of Turks say they are "not religious", though.

Also re parents, morals, etc - Due to tremendous changes in urbanization & education, there is a huge difference in the morals of my grandparents (low education, born & grew up in small villages, conservative upbringing), my parents (university education, grew up in cities, but still conservative upbringing), and myself (higher university education, grew up in cities, liberal upbringing).

My grandparents were very religious - prayed 5 times a day, fasted, etc.

My parents are non-religious - one has a vague belief in God but does no praying that I've ever seen except at funerals, the other is agnostic

Myself - Lifetime agnostic/atheist

Note that urbanisation, higher education, and economic prosperity have led to lower religiosity. This is not a a quirk in my family but a correlation that is observed everywhere. (I am not saying there are no educated rich religious people, but that this is a general trend that is well recognised)

I would say that although there has been an increase in secularisation there has also been an increase in spirituality. Part of the result of the consumer societies that we live in spreads to the religious domain, people are free to choose their religion or spirituality and how they wish to intepret and practice this. So although many wouldnt call themselves religious that does not mean they do not believe in spirituality.

I have friends who cover and pray when they can who wouldnt call themselves religious.

As for the correlation between urbanisation education and lower religiosity, Has anyone got the stats for the percentage of Muslim reverts who revert while in University? or the percentage of non practicing Muslims who start practicing while in University?

Doesnt the success of ISOCs in top London Unis demonstrate the presence of religion within those who access higher education?

I would also agree with crescent that in the families I know it is not the uneducated parents from towns and villages who are trying to involve themselves in learning and practicing Islam, it is their kids who were born in London, university educated, living a decent lifestyle.

I didn't mean "skewed" as in "messed up the global average". I meant that many of the people polled probably didn't say exactly what they thought on the subject.

In G8 countries, people are used to giving their honest thoughts on this subject. It is not the same in most (all?) Muslim countries. This is not about a vague worry about being fashionable or not, it is about whether or not you will have villagers with pitchforks at your door one night. (Slightly exaggerating here for effect, but you see what I mean )

Even in my Muslim country where the vast majority says they are not religious (possibly unique in the Muslim world) only 3% have called themselves atheist. I am sure that is because of the stigma, that many have preferred to say "not religious" than "I don't believe in God".

"in some families it's the opposite:younger generation more practising than the older"

Yes, there seems to be a reactionary effect to liberal non-religious parents, which I am aware and quite wary of.

"although many wouldnt call themselves religious that does not mean they do not believe in spirituality"

Yes, that is quite common in the Christian world, where quite a few people born to Christian parents have gone into other spiritual practices like Wicca, etc.

I have never seen that in the Muslim world, except if you are talking about belief in astrology etc. Ime, people of Muslim heritage either follow Islam (or rarely, convert to another religion "of the book" and follow that) , or just not call themselves "spiritual" in the religious sense. I have never seen or heard of a person born to Muslim parents, who then went on to call herself a white witch or whatever.

"I have friends who cover and pray when they can who wouldnt call themselves religious"

Muslims? How do they not consider themselves religious when they are praying to Allah in Arabic, quoting verses of the Quran?

"Has anyone got the stats for the percentage of Muslim reverts who revert while in University?"

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few. Just like in the army or prison, when people congregate in close quarters for several years, there is significant exchange of ideas. The university I went to was known for being a communist hotbed and many of my classmates were "converted" to this worldview.

Anyway, the negative correlation between education and religiosity is very well researched and documented, if you are interested to find out more.

" it is not the uneducated parents from towns and villages who are trying to involve themselves in learning and practicing Islam, it is their kids who were born in London, university educated, living a decent lifestyle"

2nd or 3rd generation immigrants trying to get back to their roots & showing interest in religion is also a well documented phenomenon.

In general, however, you will find that as education and living standards in a given area increase over decades, religiosity decreases. On top of the global decrease in religiosity that we have already talked about.

The word 'religious' has slightly different connotations amongst Muslims I think.

You call yourself religious your holding yourself up to a level of piety aren't you?

I don't think I'm particularly religious, my sister thinks I'm the muslim equivalent of a nun, but then she's comparing herself ot me, we both practice Islam at a basic levle according to our knowledge of it!!!

I've never met a Muslim who has chosen wicca over islam either, but then we have magic and the evil eye and jin and shaiateen in islam and it's considered an alignment of that isn't it?

I'd reckon as wealth increases, the level of religiosity decreases.

Harships make one turn to their God and ask for help.

Wealth makes you throw money at your problems.

More like Islam is half way to atheism - you have already rejected all the other deities and spiritual beliefs. Only one deity left to go

I know plenty of Muslims who have family members who do spiritual magic stuff, is called hassad or jadu and the following of pirs etc is a spiritual thing that salafis wahhabis would disagree is from Islam.

Basically there are significant exceptions to the rules you are quoting. It is also well documented that the Islamic revival bucks the secular trend, I'm not gonna get my course books out now, but maybe tomorrow!

There are also interesting cases such as Israel which is a secular state yet based on religious idealogies, many may not consider themselves religious yet they believe in the right of the Jews to the land based on biblical concepts.