The Muslim Tearoom

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

[ThenWeTakeBerlin]

Hi everyone, I'm not a muslim but finding this thread a fascinating read

[ThenWeTakeBerlin]

Oops, hit post too soon. I had a question to ask, if that's OK?

I know that muslims pray five times, do you repeat the same prayer five times or say a different one each time?

If you want to pray for a particular person, if they are sick, in danger, etc, do you include that in one of the five prayers or do it as a separate prayer?

TIA x

[ClearlyDad]

Hi Tia,

The 5 prayers time-slots are quite interesting as they vary in the number of repetitions of prayer featured in each one. In total there are 17 compulsory repetitions spread between the 5 time-slots. It's all done in Arabic (which functions the way Latin did for the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church).

A single repetition consists of a common framework of the first 7 verses of the Quran, which runs:

"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds. Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee (alone) we worship and Thee (alone) we ask for help. Show us the straight path. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray"

together with any other verses from the Quran that the Muslim might wish to add in (in many ways this is quite an art... there are the Muslim equivalent of cantors (Jewish/Catholic) who memorize vast chunks of the Quran and hone their voices to deliver it in as melodic and historically perfect way as possible).

There are also always supplications whilst bowing and prostrated (supplications = "Glory be to God the Almighty", "Glory be to God the most high").

If you were visiting a Muslim household/mosque you'd hear the first bit really quite loud, and the supplications as almost mumbling as people bowed and then bent to the floor.

That should answer your first question.

Second, you ask about praying for people. Well, it's not quite like bidding prayers at church, and how it's done depends partly on how good the person praying is at Arabic. For an Arabic speaker, they'd pick a part of the Quran that conveys the message they want to get across (so if there dad was ill, they might weave in a passage from the Quran about parents or God's healing power) and mentally dedicate it to their dad. Most Muslims aren't good Arabic speakers (there aren't that many... the language is found mainly in hot, desert countries that don't lend themselves to large populations), so the prayers form more of a meditative focus than anything conscious, with the key verses being memorized (the contrast with Church Latin is quite accurate). Within this meditative space, we believe that God is aware and listening to us, and so we direct our thoughts to whoever or whatever it is we wish to pray for.

You'll notice that I translate everything, even Allah to God. This has a long historic precedent, especially in the other direction amongst Christians who find themselves worshiping in Arabic or Arabic derived languages (God=English Dieu=French Allah=Arabic). It's not really a problem as it is the same God, just seen from the perspective of a somewhat expanded revelatory canon.

I hope this helps.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Thenwe, regarding the prayer, we pray five times a day, it's a set ritual prayer and follows a specific formula. It is all done in Arabic.

After the ritual prayer one can sit and pray for things, like ask for health or help or guidance etc which is what you're asking about I think.


My children and a most of my friends are fluent in Arabic or at least know what they recite when they pray. We have classes to teach people Arabic and how to pray correctly. Quranic Arabic is pretty easy to pick up, at least my children think so.

[ClearlyDad]

Ouch! The only Arabic I learnt was parade ground drill and haggling with taxi drivers... but I converted much later in life!

I still think the comparison with Latin is valid.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I presume the bible in its original format would have been in Aramaic not Latin.

Latin is a dead language.

Arabic is a current and live language, with regional variations and living people who use it every day and can teach it and pass it on to others.
Its a language worth learning in it's own right, especialy if you want to work in the Middle East ever (tax free top end wages anyone?).

I've made a point of ensuring my children learn conversational Arabic so they understand exactly what it is they are praying, my youngest sometimes corrects my grammar bahahahahahaha


I also think languages are an advantage generally, I want my girls to be fluent in at least one other European language besides English Inshallah.

[ClearlyDad]

Actually, the bible was written in a combination of languages (mainly Hebrew/Greek depending on which testament).

Latin served as a unifying language of prayer and worship for Catholics from about the 5th century onwards, and whilst not having the same derivation as Arabic (i.e. originally when JC spoke, he was speaking Aramaic, whereas early Muslims DID use Arabic) the sociological/linguistic glue factor was there right up until the 1970's. My gran (Irish catholic) travelled widely, and was able to join in mass in Latin anywhere she went... in exactly the same way as a Muslim could arrive at any mosque and join in with the Arabic.

I guess what I'm doing is separating out "Historic origin and justification" from "Modern usage and effect".

[ClearlyDad]

Can I ask a question now?

This is a serious one. As some of you may have guessed, I'm a Muslim who was raised catholic (long story, I also have a degree in Religious Studies, and speak French, Mandarin and bits of a few other languages, so tend to know my stuff), although I don't really know who to talk to or how to "get involved" with Islam on a practical level... because there are cultural differences in the way things are done which I don't cope well with as a father (everything from what jokes are considered appropriate to how respect is shown).

I am also a recent dad and my kid looks up to me (which is nice, if somewhat intimidating). Now, raising a kid Muslim makes sense on a philosophical level, but culturally I struggle (possibly because I appear to be such an outsider).

One example would be in the naming of the kid. We struggled and in the end went for a VERY traditional Scottish name that can be pronounced by Arabic/Urdu speakers rather than an "Islamic name"... essentially because when the altzheimer's has kicked in, and I'm sat half blind in a nursing home, I want to be able to recognise my kids when they introduce themselves to me).

Other things that bug me is the way stories are told in Islam. There is an overload of reverence for the book, the people and the stories (which for an adult can be a good thing), but I feel that it might make my kid less flippant and willing to question and challenge the world when compared to the mix of comic books and songs that catholic kids get offered. I suppose the English language/Christian equivalent would be the following juxtaposition.

This is how many Muslims seem to tell stories (very "King James!"):

"And verily, (because he is most high) did God grant unto his most loyal servant (pbuh), the might and power (being a shadow of the might and power displayed and embodied by God) necessary to overcome his enemies, and lo he did smite them with his arms and rend their hosts asunder".

Whereas what I want to say is (a bit more "Star Wars"):

"A long time ago in a far away place, God could see that his friends were struggling, so he made them stronger. When their enemies attacked, they didn't know what hit them... it was like the closing scene of the Avenger's movie, but with camels and swords. God's servant fought so hard that he was chopping people IN HALF!"

I guess what I'm looking for is a way to do the "no God but God, Mohammed is his messenger" bit with my kid whilst still being the person I've always been, and having him still feel like my son (because, to be honest, it would weird me out 20 years from now, if he didn't share the family sense of humour). I am actually quite resistant to sending him to the Islamic/Arabic Saturday school (preferring a mix of rugby and mandarin Chinese).

Please try not to be too harsh, because this is a struggle to realise that many of the things that I really enjoyed about my childhood may not happen for the kid in the same way.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Congratulations on your 'recent' dadhood, scary isn't it?

I have a set of books called Quran stories for little hearts, which tells the prophetic tales really beautifully and accessibly.

I send my girls to an Islamic school and they teach the children in a really lovely way, without being all fusty and more importantly are nothing near fire and brimstone, I hate that method of teacinhg.

The Quran translations are a bit 'correct' however both my girls are very very articulate and well spoken and have a rather alarming extensive vocabulary which regularly scares the heck out of me.

For example;

A couple of winters ago when Dd2 was aged 6 (this is very relevant), we had snow, we all had loads of fun in the snow and my girls built a snowgirl.
On Monday morning we were all getting ready for school, when I heard a blood curdling scream from my youngest child follwoed by the panic stircken cry of 'mummy, mummy, come quick. Emily has PEWISHED, she has PEWISHED!!!' (my youngest has a slight lisp) I nearly burnt myself in the panic, I kept going 'who's Emily? Who on earth is Emily, ohgod ohgod' for that mad panic stricken moment I was convinced a child called Emily had come to my house and perished and I was thinking, but I'm not that ditzy I would have noticed an extra child,...surely, then I went thro the names of the neigbours kids and I was going thro a mental list of dd2's friends and then dd1's' friends names.

When I ran upstairs, my half dressed child was looking out of the window, and pointing at the melting snow girl.

I complained to the school about it, to which the teacher replied, 'Well she doesn't use that sort of vocabulary in her written work.....' !!!!!

A good vocabulary can age a parent dramatically.

Leave the cultural stuff, you are well within your rights to name your child whatever you want, so long as the name has a good meaning.

The childrens books are in my opinion by and large fusty and boring, but the Quran stories for little hearts series is good, my girls are being bought up on a mixture of my own childhood favourites (C.S Lewis, Diana Wynne jones, Austin, Shakespeare - I love books) and the more readable Islamic books. I want my girls to enjoy their childhood, they've been thro a tough time, I want them to look back and love the times we were together, and I incorporate that into how I teach them, there is nothing wrong with joking and being happy and loving one another.

I even take my girls to the ballet!!!

[ClearlyDad]

Sounds like the kind of plan I need. Just out of interest, why did you complain about them using the word "perished"?

[fuzzywuzzy]

I didn't really complain, I told the teacher what had happened and said I wish she'd use normal words every other child in essex does, where does she even come up with that kind of language......teacher was very very amused and pointed out it must be the Quran classes.

Seriously nearly killed me tho.

We have new rule in the house, do not scream unless there is blood.

[fuzzywuzzy]

OMG I misspselled Austen

[ClearlyDad]

Or in some of the other books you read to her!

It sounds like our kids would probably get along quite well.

[fuzzywuzzy]

My library is geared towards young readers so the complete works of Shakespeare is in simplified English, both my girls read themsleves.

My youngest actually writes her own short stories which are really cute and very thoughtful.

My aim is to encourage a love of learning. There are no limits to what I know my girls can achieve providing they have the desire.

[fuzzywuzzy]

The time around when dd2 started using the word 'perished' they were learning Surah lahab which begins 'Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab'

[ClearlyDad]

Not a bad thing to have a rich vocabulary. Kids do tend to "register mash" a lot. My favourite line (from a kid with medical parents) was "Sir, it's so hot in this classroom, my snot is coagulating".

[nailak]

I think there is a lot of material around that makes Islam accessible to young kids, My First Quran, Bed time Stories for litte hearts, stories of the prophets, also some of the madrassa workbooks with colouring, short stories, quizs etc are great, as is Discover and Little Explorer Magazines.

All you need is a good bookshop!

[Cuddledup]

WOW - what an interesting thread we've got going.(I find myself googling a lot of the Arabic phrases which is great as I'm learning loads which is what I love about Islam the emphasis on study and self-improvement.

ClearlyDad thanks for posting, I'm really interested (as a non muslim and lapsed Catholic) to hear what you have to say and the replies.. Congrats on the recent parent hood, it's such fun and a privilege being a parent. Before I had my DD my life was monochrome now it is technicolor as she brings me such joy.

Fuzzy I love the PEWISHED story. My dd (8) has started saying that things are "joyous" ! Always makes me giggle as it's such a happy word.

Ok ladies (and gents) now for my question of the evening is it true that in Islam instead of doing your 5 prayers throughout the day you can do them all in one sitting (so to speak). ?Is that right ? If this is correct then it's yet another example of how wonderfully practical Islam is by recognising that people may not have the opportunity to pray at set times during the day. (IMO Islam is a wonderfully practical religion - please don't take offence at that comment it's meant as a compliment).

I hope you've all had a good day.

[ClearlyDad]

Not really in one sitting (unless travelling, then special rules can apply).

But, you know the Vulcan salute from Star Trek? You can bunch them together in that pattern (1+2+2). In some parts of the world it's actually very necessary because the times between the prayers can be very short... so far north the sun takes a long time to fall, but in more tropical climes the sun sinks fast!

You will probably all notice that I have a fairly child-like way of "register mashing" myself. It took my wife a while to get used to it, but it mostly works out okay.

Here's food for thought for you. There's an Islamic concept of "innate knowledge" (fitra for all the Arabic fans out there). Fitra explains lots of stuff... it explains why people are so shocked by violence, because deep down inside you "know" it's wrong; same with lots of the ethical/moral "gut feelings" we tend to have. Interestingly it fills the niche in Arabic philosophical thought occupied by Occam's razor and other such tests and goes some way to explain the gradual shift in global religious practices from polytheism (pick an ancient civilization) to monotheism. Now all it really takes to be a Muslim (not a practicing Muslim, or an observant Muslim, but the equivalent of a "baptized individual") is a public declaration of belief... it runs "There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his messenger". Breaking that in part, chances are you have no problem in the first bit... and given that the only other character to match Mohammed in long-term global influence is JC, the whole "divine message" thing doesn't sound that far fetched either. Now if that "feels sensible" you're probably 60% of the way to "being" Muslim!

Incidentally, in case that has got you worried, it doesn't mean dressing like a nun/ninja (pick your stereotype!) unless you want to, kowtowing to weird opinionated and bearded blokes or any of the other cultural stuff that silly people (on both sides of the fence) decide to tie in with the deal. It just means having a bit of a detox (alcohol is pretty much out... unless you end up with an infected gum and your only available disinfectant is whiskey... suffering like an idiot isn't part of the deal either), making some time in your day/life to have a chat with the big dude upstairs (again, for my Arabic audience "big dude upstairs" is as close as my sense of humour gets to a translation of Al-Halim... think about it!)... there's other stuff, but that follows in time (fasting, charitable giving, and a package holiday to the sunny kingdom of Saudi Arabia!). The prayers are really quite nice (I have a theory... modern Islam evolved at a time of conflict, and many of the practices are just "good drills"... the movements that accompany the prayers are quite yogic and good for the joints!).

Hope this helps... I almost expect to get shot down by the more experienced members of the community, but my heart's in the right place!

[nailak]

MashaAllah clearly that post was beautiful, I am crying lol

[ClearlyDad]

Just an aside, for those of you who do enjoy my take/sense of humour, I'm becoming involved in an arts project that's designed to bring British Islam to the attention of the masses... the author's going to be launching a fundraising campaign on crowdfunder soon..