Madhairday and I have been plotting behind the scenes to have this debate as we think it will be interesting, both for us and for others.
Mad is a Christian & I am an atheist. I will leave it entirely up to her to present her case.
Mine is:
It's impossible to conclude that Jesus actually existed at all given that there's simply no evidence to work with. I am aware that the majority (although not all) of scholars, both secular & religious, have concluded that he did exist, but this is for inferential reasons not evidential ones, so the issue is nowhere near as cut and dried as many people suppose.
While I am generally happy to accept that there was some man, probably called Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus, who lived in the Galilean region at the beginning of the 1st century & who may have died by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans - I don't feel that this is particularly significant or justifies anyone in believing that he was divine.
I also believe that nearly all of the "Jesus story" - the nativity, the miracles, the resurrection etc is complete myth and never happened at all.
I have continually pointed out on many threads that "There's no evidence that Jesus existed" and been called ignorant and so forth. So, this is my opportunity to make my case and demonstrate that this is, in fact, a correct statement.
So, I'm kicking of this (hopefully) interesting discussion with:
There is no evidence that Jesus the man existed. Discuss 
(By the way, this is an open discussion for anyone to join in, ask questions, make points etc, it's not just for Mad and I).
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The Great Jesus debate. Did he exist at all - and if he did, what reasons do we have to believe he was divine?
342 replies
EllieArroway · 05/03/2013 13:51
OP posts:
Flutterflybutterby ·
20/12/2021 00:17
Not RTFT, because to me this isn't an interesting topic - I have a personal relationship with Jesus and nobody could convince me that He isn't real, any more than they could convince me that I am not real 
Just popped on to say there's a great movie about this called 'The Case for Christ" which is a true story about an investigative reporter who set out to disprove Christianity when his wife converted. He wanted to "save" her from something he thought was untrue. He spoke with academics and professionals from many different fields, as much as he would if he were investigating any other story for his work. After conducting a full study, and examined all the evidence, he realised that he'd accidentally proved to himself that Christianity was true, and is now a pastor, apologist and Christian author
voldr ·
20/12/2021 20:26
@Flutterflybutterby
Not RTFT, because to me this isn't an interesting topic - I have a personal relationship with Jesus and nobody could convince me that He isn't real, any more than they could convince me that I am not real Just popped on to say there's a great movie about this called 'The Case for Christ" which is a true story about an investigative reporter who set out to disprove Christianity when his wife converted. He wanted to "save" her from something he thought was untrue. He spoke with academics and professionals from many different fields, as much as he would if he were investigating any other story for his work. After conducting a full study, and examined all the evidence, he realised that he'd accidentally proved to himself that Christianity was true, and is now a pastor, apologist and Christian author
Just popped on to say there's a great movie about this called 'The Case for Christ" which is a true story about an investigative reporter who set out to disprove Christianity when his wife converted. He wanted to "save" her from something he thought was untrue. He spoke with academics and professionals from many different fields, as much as he would if he were investigating any other story for his work. After conducting a full study, and examined all the evidence, he realised that he'd accidentally proved to himself that Christianity was true, and is now a pastor, apologist and Christian author It's not an interesting topic to you, but you thought you'd interrupt the thread to flog an unrelated book by a man who supports hate groups like Focus on the Family.
Memeandmeagain ·
26/12/2021 17:29
@EllieArroway
Madhairday and I have been plotting behind the scenes to have this debate as we think it will be interesting, both for us and for others.
Mad is a Christian & I am an atheist. I will leave it entirely up to her to present her case.
Mine is:
It's impossible to conclude that Jesus actually existed at all given that there's simply no evidence to work with. I am aware that the majority (although not all) of scholars, both secular & religious, have concluded that he did exist, but this is for inferential reasons not evidential ones, so the issue is nowhere near as cut and dried as many people suppose.
While I am generally happy to accept that there was some man, probably called Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus, who lived in the Galilean region at the beginning of the 1st century & who may have died by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans - I don't feel that this is particularly significant or justifies anyone in believing that he was divine.
I also believe that nearly all of the "Jesus story" - the nativity, the miracles, the resurrection etc is complete myth and never happened at all.
I have continually pointed out on many threads that "There's no evidence that Jesus existed" and been called ignorant and so forth. So, this is my opportunity to make my case and demonstrate that this is, in fact, a correct statement.
So, I'm kicking of this (hopefully) interesting discussion with:
There is no evidence that Jesus the man existed. Discuss
(By the way, this is an open discussion for anyone to join in, ask questions, make points etc, it's not just for Mad and I).
Mad is a Christian & I am an atheist. I will leave it entirely up to her to present her case.
Mine is:
It's impossible to conclude that Jesus actually existed at all given that there's simply no evidence to work with. I am aware that the majority (although not all) of scholars, both secular & religious, have concluded that he did exist, but this is for inferential reasons not evidential ones, so the issue is nowhere near as cut and dried as many people suppose.
While I am generally happy to accept that there was some man, probably called Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus, who lived in the Galilean region at the beginning of the 1st century & who may have died by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans - I don't feel that this is particularly significant or justifies anyone in believing that he was divine.
I also believe that nearly all of the "Jesus story" - the nativity, the miracles, the resurrection etc is complete myth and never happened at all.
I have continually pointed out on many threads that "There's no evidence that Jesus existed" and been called ignorant and so forth. So, this is my opportunity to make my case and demonstrate that this is, in fact, a correct statement.
So, I'm kicking of this (hopefully) interesting discussion with:
There is no evidence that Jesus the man existed. Discuss
(By the way, this is an open discussion for anyone to join in, ask questions, make points etc, it's not just for Mad and I).
*@Madhairday, @Mad*
I am not here to hurt anyone’s feeling or make people upset. But, sometimes talking about the truth has that effect. And I would apologise in advance if that was the case.
If I may, I along with over billion Muslims, Testify that Jesus (peace be upon him), son of Mary, existed and was real and will return to Earth to kill the Anti-Christ towards the end of times. He was never killed, neither did he die on the cross nor ever claimed to be God or Son of God.
In the sight of God and the true believers, it is completely detestable that anyone can attribute such a thing to him without any verifiable evidence. If such evidence exists, I will be the first one to become Christian.
I challenge the entire Christendom to bring a single unambiguous proof of what they allege against him and claiming divinity. He never said no such thing. All you have is conjecture, and conjecture is no substitute for the truth no matter how much people might hate it.
How our Christian brethren came to that belief, that is for them to explain and for them to reconcile.
We have been informed by our Prophet that Allah (God) have sent many thousands of Messengers overtime to give glad tidings and to warn their nations.
Why would Allah (God) suddenly feel the need for Him to come down to the Earth, be born and die to save humanity? So, what happened to the previous humanity that came before Jesus (peace be upon him)?
That does not even make any logical sense let alone of any evidence.
I, along with every single Muslim believes in Jesus (peace be upon him), we love him as much as we love every single of God's Messengers, we do not differentiate between any of them, that is one of the creed of Muslims.
Jesus (peace be upon him), was one of the might Messenger of God. He worshipped the One and Only God.
Here are only a few verses amongst many others from the Qur'an, where Allah (God) mentions about Jesus (peace be upon him).
Attempted meaning in English, (Qur'an is only in Classical Arabic and it cannot be translated because it's impossible no language exists on Earth as it's equivalence, that is one of the Miracle in itself:
O Muhammad, these are the "unseen" things, We are revealing to you: you were not present there when the priests of the Temple were casting lots by throwing their pens to decide which of them should be the guardian of Mary: nor were you with them when they were arguing about it. (Qur'an, chapter 3:44)
And remember when the angels said, "O Mary, Allah (God) sends you the good news of a Command of His: his name shall be Messiah, Jesus son of Mary. He will be highly honored in this world and in the Next World and he will be among those favored by God. He will speak to the people alike when in the cradle and when grown up, and he will be among the righteous." Hearing this, Mary said, "How, O Lord, shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me?" "Thus shall it be," was the answer. Allah creates whatever He wills. When He decrees a thing, He only says, "Be" and it is. (Continuing their message, the angels added,) "And Allah (God) will teach him the Book and wisdom, and give him the knowledge of the Torah and the Gospel, and appoint him as His Messenger to the children of Israel." (Qur'an, chapter 3:45-49)
(And when he came as a Messenger to the children of Israel, he said,) "I have come to you with a clear Sign from your Lord: in your very presence, I make the likeness of a bird out of clay and breathe into it and it becomes, by Allah's Command, a bird. I heal those born blind and the lepers and I bring to life the dead by Allah's Command: I inform you of what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Surely there is a great Sign for you in all this, if you have a mind to believe. And I have come to confirm those teachings of the Guidance of the Torah which are intact in my time. Lo! I have come with a clear Sign from your Lord; so fear Allah and obey me. Indeed Allah is my Lord, and also your Lord; therefore worship Him alone: that is the straight way." (Qur'an, chapter 3:49-51)
But when Jesus felt (persistence in) disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for (the cause of) Allah?" The disciples said, "We are supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims (submitting to Him). Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger [i.e., Jesus], so register us among the witnesses (to truth)." (Qur'an, chapter 3:52-53)
And they (i.e., the disbelievers) planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners. (Mention) when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify (i.e., free) you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you (in submission to Allah alone) superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ." (Qur'an, chapter 3:54-55)
As for those who disbelieve, I will subject them to a severe punishment in this life and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers. But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and Allah does not like the wrongdoers. (Qur'an, chapter 3:56-57)
This is what We recite to you, [O Muḥammad], of [Our] verses and the precise (and wise) message (i.e., the Qur’an). Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. This is the truth from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt. (Qur'an, chapter 3:58-60)
Now, whoever disputes with you ˹O Prophet˺ concerning Jesus after full knowledge has come to you, say, “Come! Let us gather our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves—then let us sincerely invoke Allah’s curse upon the liars.” Certainly, this is the true narrative, and there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Allah. And indeed, Allah ˹alone˺ is the Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, chapter 3:61-62)
If they turn away, then surely Allah has ˹perfect˺ knowledge of the corruptors. Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! Let us come to common terms: that we will worship none but Allah, associate none with Him, nor take one another as lords instead of Allah.” But if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that we have submitted ˹to Allah alone˺.”
O People of the Book! Why do you argue about Abraham, while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until long after him? Do you not understand?
Here you are! You disputed about what you have ˹little˺ knowledge of, but why do you now argue about what you have no knowledge of? Allah knows and you do not know.
Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim (submitting to Allah). And he was not of the polytheists.
Indeed, the most worthy of Abraham among the people are those who followed him (in submission to Allah) and this prophet (i.e., Muḥammad (peace and blessing be upon him) and those who believe (in his message). And Allah is the Ally of the believers.
Some of the People of the Book wish to mislead you ˹believers˺. They mislead none but themselves, yet they fail to perceive it. O People of the Scripture, why do you disbelieve in the verses of Allah1 while you witness (to their truth)?
O People of the Scripture, why do you mix [i.e., confuse] the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know (it)?
(Qur'an, chapter 3:63-71)
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