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The Great Jesus debate. Did he exist at all - and if he did, what reasons do we have to believe he was divine?

342 replies

EllieArroway · 05/03/2013 13:51

Madhairday and I have been plotting behind the scenes to have this debate as we think it will be interesting, both for us and for others.

Mad is a Christian & I am an atheist. I will leave it entirely up to her to present her case.

Mine is:

It's impossible to conclude that Jesus actually existed at all given that there's simply no evidence to work with. I am aware that the majority (although not all) of scholars, both secular & religious, have concluded that he did exist, but this is for inferential reasons not evidential ones, so the issue is nowhere near as cut and dried as many people suppose.

While I am generally happy to accept that there was some man, probably called Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus, who lived in the Galilean region at the beginning of the 1st century & who may have died by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans - I don't feel that this is particularly significant or justifies anyone in believing that he was divine.

I also believe that nearly all of the "Jesus story" - the nativity, the miracles, the resurrection etc is complete myth and never happened at all.

I have continually pointed out on many threads that "There's no evidence that Jesus existed" and been called ignorant and so forth. So, this is my opportunity to make my case and demonstrate that this is, in fact, a correct statement.

So, I'm kicking of this (hopefully) interesting discussion with:

There is no evidence that Jesus the man existed. Discuss Wink

(By the way, this is an open discussion for anyone to join in, ask questions, make points etc, it's not just for Mad and I).

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HolofernesesHead · 12/03/2013 09:51

Try again: Jesus the Jew - so worth reading, really excellent scholarship.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 12/03/2013 10:15

Following LadyLech's link to Wikipedia on the "Historicity of Jesus" it says that the two events in Jesus' life most widely accepted as facts are that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and put to death on the orders of Pontius Pilate.

This is what I meant in my earlier post about the importance of separating more everyday possibilities such as his life and death, from other claims such as the idea of his resurrection.

It's interesting to hear your thoughts that there is not sufficient evidence for us to say that Jesus existed Ellie - but wonder, on balance of probabilities, which way you would call it ?

Would you give any weight to the gospel stories or letters of Paul as historical accounts of events ?

pixi2 · 12/03/2013 12:33

I am following this with interest and would just like to say;

Please do not start citations. This is not a paper. I would like it to remain a debate. I love research, I love reading, I do so very dislike methodology.

Can anyone point reading out (besides wiki) as to how the Christian beliefs in Africa were different prior to the official bible that we have today?

pixi2 · 12/03/2013 12:34

Oh, my reasoning behind that last question was that if we could go back to the very early beliefs of Christianity, would we be closer to the real story of who Jesus was and therefore nearer to ascertaining whether he existed?

MadHairDay · 12/03/2013 12:38

Aaaaaaaaaaaaagggghhhhhhhh

Just wrote a long reply and computer swallowed it Angry

OK. Here's a few scholars I rate on the subjects we have covered so far:

James Dunn on Jesus, Paul and the Gospels

James Dunn on Oral Tradition in NT times

F F Bruce on the reliability of the NT Documents - Bruce has written loads of books on early Christianity, early manuscripts etc

R T France commentaries on the gospels - comprehensive on authorship, date, themes etc

Mason on Josephus - gives good summary of different views and argues excellent case for the partial authenticity of the TF, much better than I do!

Feldman on Josephus

N T Wright on the NT and early Christianity - huge read but gives excellent overview of the issues and what life was like.

E P Sanders on the historical Jesus - haven't read this for years but found it helpful in study on this issue - Sanders was of the view that the historical Jesus was not the Jesus Christians worship now so it is more of a counterbalance.

That's a few of them.

MadHairDay · 12/03/2013 12:43

Pixi - my contention is that we can go back to the early beliefs to see what the historical Jesus is like. Maybe we should now move on to NT writings? I have more to say in response to your Josephus points, Ellie, but have a feeling people are probably terribly bored of Josephus by now!! I'd suggest you read the book by Steve Mason, above - there are various articles floating round the internet summing up something of this thinking.

I'll just say though to close it Grin , you asserted that you would make sure no Christian would ever use Josephus again as evidence for Jesus, either in a historicity or historical sense. I'm afraid you haven't persuaded me of this at all - in fact, on reading around it again, I'm more than ever persuaded of the opposite. Then again, I've not persuaded you, but I don't think it's much surprise that we cannot persuade one another Grin

MadHairDay · 12/03/2013 12:47

^ what Holo said on Josephus, the Tribes and the Wise Man reference :)

HolofernesesHead · 12/03/2013 13:56

Pixi, I'm all in favour of linking to books - then we can genuinely learn from each other. I'd completely forgotten about the Mason book that MHD linked to, for example (I had looked at it, a long time ago). It's not the same as footnoting, of course (thankfully). We don't need to give publisher's details and page numbers. But just a quick link to the book itself is enough to give interested people something to go on so that they can read more if they want to. Otherwise, any one of us could say anything, and the rest of us would have no way of telling whether, it's just a wild conspiracy theory, a cut and pasted Wiki page, a minority view or a considered, shared scholarly consensus. And that way lies totalitarianism!

townbuiltonahill · 12/03/2013 17:03

'There's always Google' ..... well I've enrolled as a Wiki 'Editor' now .... so that perhaps says it all about the reliability of sources .... Wink

But now we've started listing possibly useful books - I remember reading a long time ago Who Moved the Stone? by Frank Morrison. So old that there isn't a Kindle version unfortunately.

Morrison was a lawyer who was pursuing a similar quest to Ellie, but who by considering the evidence he was able to assemble, and weighing it up in the way in which a court of law would do, became convinced in his own mind (I recall) that the Gospels must be true.

The book is a bit dated now and perhaps new information has emerged since then, but I'd be interested to have others' views.

EllieArroway · 13/03/2013 17:24

Yes, I think we're done with Josephus too.

I hope, given the nature of this debate and what is actually about, no one doubts that I have at least shown that in terms of "evidence" demonstrating a historical Jesus, the Jospephus passage fails to make the grade. It's been faffed about with by someone for nefarious purposes (almost certainly Eusebius), and if he could fake some of it, there's no particular reason why he shouldn't fake all of it. And why was he faking anything if the evidence for Jesus is so solid?

In any event, if you take out the interpolations you still don't have evidence for Jesus. Jospephus was not a contemporary of Jesus and doesn't say that he spoke to anyone who was. He tells us nothing about the life of the man & nothing he says even begins to attest to the fact that Jesus the man lived - just that there were Christians around at the end of the first century who believed in him (and those believers wouldn't have been eyewitnesses either).

The reason there is so much debate about this 127 words is that, sadly and astonishingly, it represents the very best Christians have to demonstrate an existent Jesus. So they fight with every ounce in their bodies to hang on to it.

Outside of the bible, there exists not the tiniest thread of proof for the living Jesus.

Tacitus & Pliny were writing in the next century from different countries and merely confirm for us that early Christians were around. We already know that from Paul. Seutonius is almost certainly not talking about Jesus so should be dismissed completely. The Talmud says nothing concrete that we could use to trace Jesus and not only is it doubtful whether it talks about him at all it was written centuries after the events. Josephus could be a superb witness - he's close in time and place, writing about exactly the kind of things that would lead him to mention Jesus & talk about his life but he doesn't.

So, we are unfortunately have no option but to accept the word of believers in the cult, because they manage to be the only people who talk about this man. Nobody outside of the cult (as Christianity was at that time) appears to be interested enough - an oddity in itself.

The only "evidence" we have for Jesus, then, is the Bible. And I shall show that even this manages not be to reliable evidence either.

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EllieArroway · 13/03/2013 17:54

Here's some books I have and would recommend for anyone wanting to read more:

The Case For the Mythical Christ

The Jesus Puzzle

Origins Of Christianity

The Lost Scriptures - The Gospels That Never Made It Into The Bible

[[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173940/ref=la_B001I9RR7G_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=136319
6002&sr=1-2 Jesus Interrupted]]

Misquoting Jesus - Who Changed The Bible and Why

Forged - Writing In The Name Of Jesus

The Christ Myth Theory & It's Problems

The Case Against The Case For Christ - A New Testament Scholar Refutes Lee Strobel

Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus

The books were all written by New Testament scholars & academics.

It's an odd, odd thing - but prior to the 2nd World War NO scholars (including the very religious ones, which was most of them) believed that the Josephus passage was anything other than a complete fraud. It's only with the advent of modern apologetics that the "partly" forged idea has come about. I have no idea why this should be since no new information has come to light.

As Dr Gordon Stein said: "...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars."

And Earl Doherty in Josephus Unbound Here says: "Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions."

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niminypiminy · 13/03/2013 18:28

Thanks for providing your sources, Ellie. I can't open the first link,

I notice that that four of your books are by a single scholar, and that of all the books, only one is published by a reputable academic press. Certainly, it would seem unlikely that a book published by the American Atheist Press (The Case against the Case for Christ), or Age of Reason Publications (The Jesus Puzzle) or Stellar House Publishing (The Origins of Christianity; kindle only edition) had been peer reviewed by leading experts in the field.

niminypiminy · 13/03/2013 18:46

Was the first link to Earl Doherty's Jesus: Neither God nor Man, which is what I got when I googled the title you gave. If it is, you have three books by Doherty in your list, all of which are published by Age of Reason publications, which is a self-publication imprint owned by Earl Doherty.

MadHairDay · 13/03/2013 19:21

Ah yes I've come across some stuff by Doherty, he is among a small number of scholars who believe the TF was a complete fabrication. Not a mainstream view at all. Mason, in the book mentioned above, does an excellent job in refuting this viewpoint and setting out the case I've miserably failed tried to summarise.

The reason most contemporary theologians see the TF as a partially authentic document is that modern methods of textual study and comparison have been used and proven it is so.

It still outlines a historicity for Jesus.

A summary of what it offers is:

? The time frame that the Gospels place Jesus in,

? Jesus had a reputation for teaching wisdom,

? Jesus was believed to have performed miracles,

? Jesus had a brother named James,

? Some Jewish leaders were involved with Jesus' execution,

? Pilate was Prefect and had Jesus executed,

? Jesus was executed by crucifixion,

? Jesus was known as a messianic figure,

? Jesus was the founder of Christianity,

? Acts' portrayal of James as the leader of the Jerusalem Church is confirmed,

? The existence of early Jewish persecution of Christians in Jerusalem, and,

? That the early Christians reported that Jesus was raised from the dead as foretold by the Jewish prophets (based on Eisler's reconstruction and Mason's comments on linguistic similarities).

Ooops! Must leave good old Josephus behind now. Let's move on

EllieArroway · 13/03/2013 19:23

So, the Bible, then. Can it offer us some evidence?

Yes, some - but not much.

The Gospels

We don't know who wrote the gospels, the writers remain anonymous. They didn't sign the manuscripts, don't name themselves or even allude to who they are within it. All four are written in the third person, and never suggest, or even hint, that they personally witnessed any of the events they describe or reference anyone that they claim did. They don't tell us where they got their information or how they know it's true. The only thing that can be known for certain about the authors is that they weren't Matthew, Mark, Luke or John - or indeed any person who met a living Jesus.

Luke, for example, at the very beginning of his gospel is at great pains to tell Theophilus that he's producing his work having spent a long time investigating the claims "handed down to us" by those who were the first eyewitnesses and servants of the Lord. He never says what he's investigated or who the eyewitnesses are, but it's clear that a) he is not one of them, b) he's consulting material rather than speaking to people and c) is distanced from the original tellers by a substantial amount of time.

All four are written in Greek, so not the language native to Jesus & his disciples. They were also written, almost certainly, outside of Palestine (due to their ignorance about Palestinian geography and Jewish customs). So foreign accounts, written by foreigners in a foreign language.

Whoever wrote them, we can see that they were very highly educated - that they could write at all demonstrates this - and they were Christians. So, their accounts cannot be regarded as either unbiased or impartial.

All of this, if nothing else, demonstrates that they weren't written by the disciples who were meant to be humble, working men.

Regarding literacy in the Roman Empire at the time, Bart Ehrman (Professor of Religious Studies & NT scholar) says: "Illiteracy was widespread throughout the Roman Empire. At the best of times maybe 10% of the population was roughly literate. And that 10% would be the leisured classes - upper class people who had the time and money to get an education".

It would be ridiculous indeed to even try to suggest that a Galilean fisherman, for example, could read and write in his own language, let alone a foreign one. They probably knew a few Greek Koine words (as well as Latin), as it was becoming the lingua franca of the region, but Aramaic was their native language.

Dating them is very difficult indeed because there are no outside sources to reference. We can only go by what the gospels themselves tell us. Carbon dating and so on is useless because no original copy survives - the earliest fragment we have is the P25 (a scrap, nothing more) that was produced in the middle of the 2nd century.

It's believed that Mark is the first gospel written and since he directly references the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem we know it can't have been written any earlier than AD70, which is when that happened. Traditionally, Christians (who would prefer to be able to prove it was produced earlier) have tried to suggest that the reference to the Temple was "prophetic". Supernatural claims like that have no place in sensible discussion, so that's all I'll say.

Matthew is believed to have been written next, a generation or so later, followed by Luke & then John. The writers did not know each other personally.

It's really important to stress that the ONLY clues available for the dating of these is what is said within the gospels themselves, and they don't even hint as to when they were written. There exists no historical or archaeological evidence that proves these gospels even existed at the time, let alone when they were written. So the reality must be that they could have been written much, much later. We just don't know.

The first reliable mention the gospels get from an external source is towards the end of the second century. The earliest church fathers don't mention them before this.

It's possible that Justin Martyr might mention them half way through the 2nd century, but this is not altogether clear. He quotes from the "Memoirs of the Apostles" but no one knows what that is. It might be the gospels, but it's an odd thing to refer to them as and the quotes he uses only vaguely correspond to something written in Matthew. The "Memoirs of the Apostles" could equally be a shared source that is now lost - as lots and lots have been.

Lee Strobel, a lawyer and journalist, claims that he found over 200 direct quotations from the gospels within Justin Martyr's work. He fails to say that most of them are repetitions (it's the same very few quotations over and over again) and there's nothing "direct" about them. An actual scholar and expert in these matters, Constantin von Tischendorf (who found one of the most important NT copies) could only find two - and, as I said, they are only tenuously similar to anything in Matthew.

So, we can only reliably say that the gospels are known to have existed in the late 2nd century.

I am NOT saying this is when they were written, just that we don't really know & have no way of finding out with any certainty.

So, what we have is four accounts written, at the very least, a generation after the events they describe by people who weren't there to see it, and didn't personally speak to anyone who was. They rely heavily on each other for their information (Matthew & Luke use Mark, for example) and other sources now lost to us (in particular the hypothetical Q source). We have no external data of any kind at all to try and assess whether what they say is true, so we have to take their words for it.

This would be easier to do if they managed to be consistent in the stories they tell - but they don't. At all. We'll come to that, I expect.

This is good, solid evidence that Jesus existed? In what universe?

Paul

Paul is useless when trying to establish historicity for Jesus since, if we go by the letters that are known to have been written by him, he never mentions any aspect of Jesus's life on Earth. He appears not to have known anything about it - and this is meant to be the father of Christianity, the founder of the church!

He only mentions the death & resurrection of Jesus and gives every appearance of believing that these events took place in a spiritual way & in some other realm. If Jesus lived as and died as a human being on this planet, the fact seems to have passed Paul by.

Christians tend to say that a) he knew this stuff but didn't talk about it because it wasn't in his remit and b) there's a lot of material where he does, but it's lost.

I would think the single most important "fact" about Jesus is that he lived on Earth as a man, and not all that long before Paul himself lived. If I was him it's the very first thing I would tell people.

We can't hypothesise documents then try to use them for evidence. Of course Paul MAY have written about this in other letters (we know that lots have been lost), but he equally may not have done. We can only go by what we physically have - and when it comes to Paul, that is precious little.

Go to it, people Wink

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MadHairDay · 13/03/2013 19:27

Will do, but having an evening's slobbery in front of the TV first Wink Back tomorrow to discuss!

EllieArroway · 13/03/2013 19:34

Was Josephus a contemporary? No.

An eyewitness? No.

Does he tell us where he got his information? No.

It's hearsay. So no, Mad in no way does it meet the criteria of reliable evidence.

Josephus can say whatever he likes, but when it comes to real history, we don't actually take people's word for it. Going by your exact methodology, we could use him to prove the existence of rather a lot of Pagan gods in exactly the same way as you're trying to use him to prove Jesus. We have other crucified Jewish leaders with followers, all of whom claimed supernatural feats of their "messiah". You dismiss all of that rather readily, but not this for the same reason? It's called confirmation bias.

You've remained very silent on Tacitus, Pliny, Seutonius & The Talmud (which you apparently regarded as solid evidence).

Josephus must be dismissed for the exact same reasons they must be - they weren't there. It's hearsay. And hearsay is NOT evidence.

:)

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EllieArroway · 13/03/2013 20:01

A quick thought experiment - I'm not expecting an answer, I'm just trying to illustrate what I mean about the reliability of evidence.

If I say:

60 years ago (before I was born) there existed a man who was half unicorn half fish. He was called Percy and was shot dead by John F Kennedy, who mistook him for a deer while out hunting".

I am saying this, therefore this proves that indeed, Percy existed and JFK shot him dead.

By using Mad's methodology, you would have to conclude that my statement was historically reliable & Percy did indeed exist somehow. Just because I said it, this must prove it's true.

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niminypiminy · 13/03/2013 20:34

The problem with your 'thought experiment' (which is a bogus term in this context) is that it makes some questionable a priori assumptions.

It assumes that the conditions for making a statement about something are the same now as they were then. Of course that is not true, because there has been a revolution in the evidential status of speech and writing since that time, and because the ubiquity of official records has superseded the continuity of oral testimony.

It assumes that the statement "60 years ago... etc" is the same order of statement as ... well, what, exactly? If it is being compared to one of the synoptic gospels, then it isn't analogous. The gospels were not written with the purpose of proving the existence of Jesus, but with preserving his life and sayings among groups of worshippers. If you had asked, say, the Johanine community to give a statement of the evidence they had for believing in the existence of Jesus, it wouldn't have looked like the gospel -- but they would probably have thought you were mad for asking them to do so. An unbroken tradition of oral testimony would have been sufficient evidence for them.

It assumes that there is a clear distinction between evidence and hearsay, and between evidence and testimony. There is not. All evidence is either hearsay or testimony. Everything we know is about anything from a third-party source is, in essence, hearsay or testimony. Everything we accept from a piece of written documentation (including all reports of scientific experiments) is hearsay. If you have two witness statements, you simply have two pieces of hearsay.

HolofernesesHead · 13/03/2013 21:06

I'm just a-passin' through here, but just wanted to say hi Ellie, good to see you again.

One point of order: not all 4 gospels are written in the 3person all the way through. John is an obvious one; 'I have written these things in order that you might believe.' If you count Luke-Acts as a single composition (which virtually all mainstream secular biblical scholars do) there are loads of 'we' passages (we went here, then we went there etc.) there are probably other examples but those are obvious ones. Back later! :)

HolofernesesHead · 13/03/2013 22:26

Also - point of order- Mark's Greek is not at all cultured / educated! Or particularly Matthew or John, either. Classicists shudder over NT Greek! Luke is the most polished in his Greek, but even there, only in parts. The Greek of the Gospels, on the whole, is very rough and ready (as is the vast majority of what is now the NT.) Going by the texts we have, from a linguistic POV, the Gospels are very humble indeed.

EllieArroway · 14/03/2013 06:15

It's really quite simple, Niminy....you do have an odd habit of over complicating things.

Hearsay is, by it's very definition "information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour".

Testimony, conversely, is precisely the opposite - it's a formal statement of something that can be used as evidence because it comes directly from the source.

Testimony IS evidence - just a certain type. That's why people "testify" in court. But the idea that there's no distinct line between hearsay & testimony is, sorry, bonkers. They mean the opposite to each other, no one could mistake the one for the other.

The reason hearsay is not considered evidence is because it CAN'T be substantiated. If it could be, or subsequently is, it ceases to be hearsay.

And no - we use the same rules of evidence for ancient history as we would for modern history. That this happened 2000 years ago does not mean it should be investigated less rigorously than anything else. Of course, allowances have to be made to some degree - historians have to take into account the lack of formal records for example, but if something is manifestly hearsay, then it isn't just let off the hook because it was a long time ago. It may well be interesting, even suggestive, but it cannot be considered evidence if it cannot be substantiated at all. Frustrating, yes - but that's the way it is.

None of the accounts outside of the Bible can be considered anything other than hearsay. We know that none of them were eyewitnesses because they had not been born when these things were happening & they don't tell us where and who they got the information from. This means that it is impossible for us to make a judgement about the reliability of the source. We have no way of knowing whether the person that told Josephus this was a respected church elder or someone he bought bread off on the street, who heard it from his mum, who heard it from her friend, who heard it from her neighbour......and so on.

If we don't know, then how can we assess it properly?

Josephus provides good evidence that Christians existed who worshipped and believed in a long dead (60 years by then) Jewish teacher who was crucified by Pilate.

THAT'S what Josephus (probably) proves. Not that there actually was, necessarily, such a person, merely that there were Christians who believed there was.

We also have to be aware that most human beings since time began worshipped something or someone - and most of them didn't worship Jesus, did they? So we know, without any shadow of a doubt, that the act of believing something, inventing rituals & passing on stories does not prove that what they are worshipping is/was truly real.

So, interpolations or no - Josephus does not demonstrate an historical Jesus, neither does Tacitus, Pliny, Seutonius or The Talmud.

Does this mean Jesus didn't exist? No, of course not - just that none of these sources can be used as evidence to prove that he did. It's unfortunate for Christians that that's all they have - but that's hardly my fault, is it.

If you don't like the sound of the books I linked to - don't read them.

I do find your attitude to this debate a little odd. We are on Mumsnet, of all places. This is for entertainment purposes only. We are exchanging information, that's all - not putting together an academic tome. Nothing that's been said so far is remotely controversial - both of us are presenting the standard rebuttals that are always presented in these debates.

All anyone should be taking from this is "Oh that sounds interesting, I'll read up on that".

So, really, with all due respect, lighten up.

Holo Yes, Acts & Luke are the same person, I think that's pretty well established. He explicitly says at the beginning (check your Bible!) of Luke that's he's not an eyewitness. Whether he was as far as Paul was concerned is debatable - the "we" stuff is only used during the account of a voyage and it may well be that he's using someone else's source material. In any event, we're only concerned with the life of Jesus here and Luke tells us quite explicitly that he was not an eyewitness, but he's investigated it all thoroughly (although he hasn't cited any peer reviewed sources, so bugger him - what does he know!)

(Only joking).

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EllieArroway · 14/03/2013 06:16

Oh - I agree. Mark is very ungrammatical & crude. Matthew corrects him on this a lot. But he could write at all - that truly was the sign of an education, in those days - even writing badly was quite something.

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EllieArroway · 14/03/2013 06:53

Ellie, you said that Justin Martyr is much later than Origen. Check the dates!

I know you won't believe me, but I did actually know that -I think I was thinking backwards in time, further away from the events at Year 0 etc. Sorry.

Also, 'Dialogue with Trypho' isn't about proving the historical existence of Jesus in the way that we might think of it - it's about trying to convince the Jewish readers that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, from the Hebrew Scriptures

Well, Trypho possibly/probably didn't exist, it was a device most likely to get his points across. At one point he has Trypho complaining at lack of historicity of Jesus & the events - an objection therefore invented by Justin himself so he could address it. But he doesn't use the only known non-negative passage about Christianity to counter that? From an historian he quotes from over and over again?

Likewise Contra Celsum is about convincing readers of the superiority of Jesus to all other philosophies

Well, no. Celsus launched a very severe attack on Christians, Origen defended it......by quoting extensively from Josephus (and other things). And I would think that the one thing that made Jesus superior to other philosophies is that he actually existed. But Origen feel the need to demonstrate that?

The TF is about the only time anyone ever said anything half nice about Christians - they'd have been falling over themselves, quoting it left right and centre (just like Christians do today).

Nah. Not buying it. Sorry :)

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niminypiminy · 14/03/2013 09:03

I do think it matters that people can back up their arguments, because in any kind of debate the onlookers are being asked to decide whose arguments carry more weight. Rhetoric is a persuasive form of speech or writing, and that is what people who are debating use (some well, some badly). A debate can be a fine thing, in which people present arguments. But debates are only good for some things. They are good for presenting opinions, but they are pretty bad for investigating matters of evidence. When, as we have here, there is a question of assessing historical evidence, rhetoric is of little value. To decide how to evaluate evidence we need to consider the methodology of each side, the ways they interpret the evidence, their relevant knowledge and expertise.

If we simply treat this as a debate, as the recitation of standard arguments, it quickly becomes 'I'm right, you're wrong, yah boo sucks', which I can see in any playground. That's about as entertaining as a boxing match, if you like boxing.
But I am interested in learning about this, and as someone with some knowledge of history (though in a different period), I think it is important to consider questions about the interpretation of evidence, methodology and so forth.

My point about hearsay and testimony, which I no doubt expressed badly, was that we depend in good faith upon the accounts of others for all of our knowledge about the past, and for most of our knowledge about the world. When someone publishes the report of a scientific experiment, they are giving their testimony about what happened; when I read it it becomes hearsay -- that is, third party information that I cannot myself verify. There are always questions of trust and credibility in accepting any account. One of the things, as you point out, that makes an account trustworthy, is that it is subjected to rigorous scrutiny and to independent confirmation (and that is one reason why your list of books looks so weak). Where the historical record is fragmentary, and where so much that happened has either never been recorded or has been lost, then careful investigation and interpretation of the sources is doubly important in assessing the kind of evidence they give.

So, fine, debate away. It's just that to get to the bottom of the question (or at least nearer the bottom that we are now) I think we need to get beyond trading positions and arguments.