I have absolute proof that there is no God.

[seeker]

I've just seen in our local paper that a little girl who lives in our town has died. She has been the focus of much prayer since she was taken ill last year. Her parents were thoroughly good Christian people who trusted God absolutely.

The is no way that a loving, omnipotent, beneficent God who notes even a sparrow falling would not have answered these people's prayer.

So, if I had even a scintilla of doubt, it is now gone. There is no God.

You'll NEVER win with that, seeker! The conceptual difference between 'statistically unlikely occurrence' and 'will of god' is so slight that even insurance policies talk of god. They say god, I say random. [shrug]

I can give you examples seeker.

But they will only ever be subjective, you have no reason to 'believe' me as someone you don't know outside an internet forum, and to believe my sources. I guess what you want is proof, as in something medically proven. I even know people with such, but it would still be subjective to you I suspect, unless written up in medical journals with accompanying evidence. What would you want? Will a certain story of proof convince you, whereas in the Op you decided that you had absolute proof of there being no God?

So you know people with medical evidence that a miracle has happened? Proper, peer reviewed evidence?

It's the peer reviewed evidence thing you see - when I say evidence is friends with before/after photos - a friend whose scan was clear...stuff like that. But I know more people, including myself, who haven't been physically 'healed', and therefore I am loath to quote such happenings left right and centre to prove a point. What I have found in my own pain and suffering is God at the centre with me, and this is what I firmly believe God does in our pain. Sometimes there are glimpses, signs - as in the 'now and not yet' I referred to earlier - signposts to what it should be like and will be, and there is no favouritism in such, no 'thousands of people prayed therefore there was a miracle' - there is seeming randomness to us, but it seems that when these things happen there are people's lives transformed as a result.

What if there were hundreds of articles with substantive and objective evidence on such matters? If it changed your mind as to the existence of God, would it then change your mind as to what that God was like? Surely the questions would remain, of why do some children die and some not? Of why that couple is able to conceive but that one not? I think we need to get beyond the question of proof and look to a different perspective. I believe that is to be found in a God who is willing to get into the mess with us and do something about it.

Absolutely. I am clear that God does not exist. But if it turns out that he does, and occasionally answers prayers but usually doesn't, then how anyone can say that he is a loving and benevolent Father god completely escapes me.

God isn't necessarily good....hark at Epicurus turning in his grave.

I am sorry for your loss and the parents' loss, Seeker.

Indeed. Which is why I don't think you wanting and even acquiring medically proven evidence is going to be in any way helpful to the debate. I am attempting to look at matters in a different way.

I know God answers prayer. I see it so much. And yes, in the mundane as much as in the spectacular. I also know that sometimes, and sometimes in the most heartbreakingly incomprehensible way, God seems to be silent.

It's bloody difficult. There are sometimes no words, and certainly trying to explain how it works in terms of God's plans or God's will hardly helps the debate. We can only talk it round, face the issues head on, and for me, I pray about it. I like it when the Psalmist goes all out and shrieks at God, I do that sometimes. I don't get answers written in the sky.

And yet remain convinced. Utterly, totally, convinced that there is a God and God is good.

Juggling, I missed some of your posts on the previous page. Just wanted to tell you I'm in your fan club, too.

Medical miracle: Shanyna Isom :(

quarrel - if god isn't necessarily good, what is it? Human? Random??

Poor woman, garlic :(

seeker,you cannot find God through proof.
And God cannot be found through science either.

God is found through the narrow door of Jesus.

I keep imaging this thread as people looking in different rooms of a house for a pearl or gold coin that they have lost.
There are people looking in one room marked proof.
There are other people looking in another room marked science,and so on.
And they are all asking,like in that game,whether they are hot because they are getting near the treasure,or cold beacuse they are far away from it.
The pearl or gold coin is in another room of the house called Jesus.

And even if you believe Jesus was indeed raised from the dead,you also have to say sorry for your sins.
fwiw,I know of someone who believed for years in God and Jesus,but wouldnt bow down and sorry for his sins.He did eventually,6 months before he died.
I also know someone,who says anyway,actually sort of already has, says sorry to God for his sins,but isnt sure that God exists yet.

I am in danger of somewhat repeating myself on this thread,so I may not stay.
I cannot join in most of the posts,because i dont understand a lot of it ,even some of what madhairday posts.It is not anyones fault,it is just how it is.
It is no use me posting when I do only understand a bit,as I seem to wind people up.
technodad,you asked how old the earth is.I think you would be very surprised if I was able to tell you the answer to that one!

I'm not looking for God.

Have you stopped looking,or are trying to warn others not to bother looking.

I just want to try to understand other people. I want to know how people answer to their own satisfaction the questions which to me are so obviously deal breakers.

Fair enough.I hope you find out.

amillionyears,

Welcome back.

It is not a case of surprise, I am just interested in your opinion on how old the planet Earth is.

Thanks for being a fan garlic !

I liked what you said about ways to interpret God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as an allegory of human experience.

I've thought God as Jesus is the ultimate expression of seeing God or the divine in others. God as Holy Spirit is our own more personal experience of the divine spirit. And God the Father represents seeing God in nature and in the universe as a whole, in creation if you like.

Dear Lord, open the eyes of each and every person's heart that does not know you on this thread, that has been hurt in any way, shape or form, so that they may know you. Lord Jesus, may you reveal Yourself to them in the way that only You can.

Seeker, sad about the little girl and sad news for her family. God gives us enough faith and grace to see us through any hardship and with this God given faith, neither death, nor hunger, nor pain nor sorrow can ever separate us from His love. Of course, we are comforted and brought closer only if we ask Him and He reveals Himself to those who earnestly seek Him, and i am one of those people who have had this 'proof' of God's existence, when all i was looking for was more of Him. The only thing i have ever been sure of this life is His existence and Loving Kindness. I know i do not make sense but my point is, not having proof does not mean God does not exist. He is very much alive. The fact that you are alive is ALL God.

What an absolute crock of nonsense!

I agree, technodad.

BlessedAssurance

The prayer thread is elsewhere (you appear to have become lost). My eyes are already fully open, and if you think your eyes are open, then may I suggest that you might be somewhat blind!

amillionyears - I'm sorry that some of my witterings don't make sense to you, they often don't to me either

Blessed,

I agree with some of the essence of what you say, in your surety of the existence of God. I perhaps wouldn't downplay the horrific suffering that people go through by saying we are given enough grace to face hardship. Sometimes it simply doesn't seem this way. Sometimes it is utterly and completely awful. Sometimes we cannot find comfort, and there is a darkness that goes on and on. I think it can be too easy to say that it's OK, God's there, we can be happy. Instead I think we Christians should sometimes find ways to sing songs of lament. To weep and shout and scream at God, while trusting in his integral goodness and that all will one day be reconciled and well and beautiful again.