Catholics, what are your thoughts on this mornings Bishops letter?

[ImproperlyAcquainted]

The one from Vincent Nicholls and Peter Smith regarding marriage, specifically homosexual marriage.

I want to respond but after rambling on for 3 pages I'n not really sure of my point anymore.

The differentiation is surely that some Catholics do not agree with their Church's view of gay marriage!
The Catholic Church is very clear on it's view of marriage. It is a very important part of the core beliefs of the Church. The Church is equally clear about homosexual activity. Therefore the Church's view of gay marriage is also clear - it is an absolute no!
The discussion comes about because there are Catholics who do not share the belief of their Church about this, in the same way they don't share the belief that sex before marriage is a sin, contraception is a sin, masturbation is a sin, even lustful thoughts are a sin!!!!!

postbellumbugsy Yes I can see that. I originally joined this thread because I was so heartened to see Catholics taking that brave step of questioning something that they could see was wrong in terms of equality. There are many examples of that view being expressed on here. But I can also see some thinly veiled Bigotry which I get so cross about. I will butt out now and leave the Catholiocs to their original discussion. Apologies.

PostBellumBugsy, Really, though, if a person disagrees with the core beliefs of Catholicism it does beg the question: Are they really Catholics?

I mean lots of people I know are 'lapsed' because they disagree with the Church's views. Fair enough. My mil being one of them.
What I cannot understand is how people can claim to agree with gay marriage and be Catholics. Sorry, but it's ridiculous.

Wamster, can you please refrain from inaccurate statements about the role of the papacy and the core beliefs of Catholics.

I could see your point if this debate were about the person of Christ or the Trinity or even the Eucharist but as its not, you have no point.

Wamster, as you know I asked a similar question on this thread about 2 days ago.
I think you will find that alot of Catholics believe that the Church does a great deal of good, or that they find other aspects of it plausible, enjoyable and commendable that they overlook the areas on which they do not agree with the Church. It is also true, that certainly in the UK, priests will often say that it is down to the individual and their conscience, rather than lose a parishoner.

It is also a hard faith to shake off. As a child you are taken to Church every Sunday, many Catholics send their children to Catholic schools too. You become well & truly drenched in the faith with the beliefs hard-wired in your head.
So, whilst it is easy for non-Catholics to ridicule Catholics for their questioning of their faith, or lack of belief in some areas - it shows a profound lack of understanding for what it means to be brought up a Catholic.

This thread and specifically LividCatholic is the subject of an article in 'The Tablet'.

It is great that this issue is being discussed so passionately. It is a very important issue and does warrant discussion in Parliament.

Really? They must have written that quickly to get it to press in time! I wonder where I can find a copy this morning (church is locked after morning mass here).

OMG! I'm quoted!

www.thetablet.co.uk/article/162455

PostBellumBugsy, I realise that catholicism love bombs its members making it hard to leave, and, yes, perhaps I am being too coldly logical here.

But that does not make me incorrect.

Improperly Is the Pope God's representative on earth or not? If so, then surely his word is the word of God's?

I dunno the catholics here would be more suited to the wishy-washy C of E. The Catholic church ain't a nice democratic institution.

My mil worked in Africa she saw first hand the damage the catholic stance on contraception did. She decided to let her catholicism lapse. I've learnt from this thread that you cannot just leave it.

"It is also a hard faith to shake off. As a child you are taken to Church every Sunday, many Catholics send their children to Catholic schools too. You become well & truly drenched in the faith with the beliefs hard-wired in your head.
So, whilst it is easy for non-Catholics to ridicule Catholics for their questioning of their faith, or lack of belief in some areas - it shows a profound lack of understanding for what it means to be brought up a Catholic."

I don't think it's actually hard to understand why Catholics are often so loyal to their faith and feel that it is part of their identity - you have summed it up in your post above.

As Vicar, then he is representative but being representative is a different thing from being the person. Only a very small amount of Doctrine is ex cathedra as it were. As I mentioned several days ago, which you ignored, the pope has declared that you shouldn't believe anything which you yourself do not hold to be true. If you are so keen for the pope to be unquestioned, why do you question this?

But being a representative means relaying the word of God? As being a representative of anyone or anything is?

My understanding of Catholicism is that it requires a human intermediary to communicate with God, is this true?

If so, you've got to take the word of the 'intermediary human' seriously to be a catholic seriously, don't you? And as all the major bods are against this, then surely the Catholics should be against it, too?

If this thread were about the C of E-which requires no intermediary- then I would understand the posters here. As it is about Catholicism, I do not.

Also, the 'core beliefs' you keep bringing up are stated in the Creed, which doesn't mention morality, sexual or otherwise. Its perfectly possible to have faith in Christ and to believe the Creed without thinking PIV reproductive sex is the only way to have a relationship.

"My understanding of Catholicism is that it requires a human intermediary to communicate with God, is this true?"

No

We still say the Our Father for example

There is a history/ tradition of intercession but that doesn't negate the personal relationship

HTH

but Improperly, the Catholic faith is not just the Creed. Also as, I keep pointing out the creed says "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church". Every Sunday you say that, you are saying you believe in the Church.

If you look at the current Cathechism - the core beliefs go way, way further than the Creed and have an awful lot to do with morality, sexual and otherwise.

ImproperlyAcquainted, What about Papal infallibility, does that mean nothing to you?

Doh, Wamster - we've discussed all of this further up. The Pope is only infallible on ex Cathedra statements - not on whether or not he thinks it may rain tomorrow!!!!!
He is of course the leader of the Catholic Church on earth, and as such what he says and does is very important and significant - but it doesn't mean that every utterance comes directly from God.
Stop being so deliberately inflammatory on issues you have not researched properly.

Papal infallibility does not refer to every utterance made by the pope nor does it assume the pope to be prophetic but even so I think it is questionable in practice although I agree with the theology behind it. Even St. Peter wasn't perfect, he was always messing up. Remember the cock crow?

I believe in one Holy Catholic Apostolic church, but I don't believe that the hierarchy, or indeed the laity get it right all the time. If they did then nothing would ever change and it clearly has. The Pope is trying to apply his teaching role to a world which is unrecognisable to the original apostles and I feel its right to regard the doctrine of the Church as open to change and development and interpretation rather than something to be preserved in aspic.

which really brings me back to how much of your faith can you not believe, whilst still being a part of it? Does that even matter? Is a very loose affiliation ok? Can you intentionally & knowingly commit quite major sins, for which you have no intention of seeking forgiveness, on a daily basis & it not matter?
No doubt all for another thread!

Oddly enough, I have just started a separate thread on just that question, bugsy!

But bugsy, I dont think saying that you believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church is the same as saying that you believe that every utterance of members of its hierarchy is true. I think it means you believe in the existence of the church as a body.

I wonder if there is a definitive answer to what that bit means.

the catholic bit actually means 'universal'. The apostolic bit means the church founded on teh the apostles, ie the rc church.

but what does believing in the Church mean, if you don't believe in the stuff it stands for?
Sorry, to sound obtuse, but if you believe in the Church, you are not just acknowledging its existance - you are believing in it. Or aren't you?