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Original poster

Hallelujah He is Here - Chataway

871 replies

DutchOma · 19/01/2012 17:24

Well here you are then Smile I don't post often, but just to save Nickel a job...

OP posts:
lostmywellies · 11/02/2012 21:25

:o

practicallyimperfect · 12/02/2012 12:37

Well I went. It was nice, I needed to go. Not sure it is for me long term. They sing Gloria, very traditional. I need something in-between.

My current church is a pioneer church. Very "go with the flow". Worship all at beginning, sometimes a talk, sometimes someone feeding back on mission work, it is so hit and miss.

I have been to a couple of others. A city centre CofE, was great but huge. No real community feel. Everything in my area is very high church traditional or the one I go to.

Sigh. I do feel more in touch with God again though.

Original poster
DutchOma · 12/02/2012 13:35

No Methodists or Baptists URC or some such?

OP posts:
marmiteandhoney · 12/02/2012 14:07

ICA has a cracking tune, but some seriously dodgy theology- 'the wrath of God was satisfied'- eeek! I can just about manage to sing it if I substitute 'the love of God was satisfied', but it still reeks of penal atonement and makes me squirm a bit. I have to sing 'love' very loudly to cancel out all the 'wrath' :o

Church was very flat this morning. We had clergy swap and the vicar from down the road was rather dull and very quiet. And there was no Sunday School, but no one brought their children to my activities at the back; they all sat on pews looking bored as hell. Apart from one dad who brought his daughter and found her some colouring sheets. Although not my lectionary ones, just some random ones from a few weeks ago

We're off on holiday tomorrow morning- five days in Stockholm, yay!

gingercurl · 12/02/2012 14:33

Enjoy your visit in my hometown, Marmite.

marmiteandhoney · 12/02/2012 14:42

Cool! I'll give it a wave from you :)
Any insider's tips for me? So far we're planning to: wander around the old town, go to the Pippi Longstocking museum, go to the Vasa museum, walk round Skansen, and stop off lots for hot chocolate and snacks :o
What else should be on my radar? (am travelling with husband and four children under 9)

creatovator · 12/02/2012 14:50

Hi Practicallyimperfect I'm fairly new too. Make sure Nickel asks you the newbie questions.

Church was a bit flat with us too Marmite. Our leader was away, but that's not unusual, so don't know what was going on. I found it hard to connect with God.

Have a good holiday.

madhairday · 12/02/2012 15:45

hehe marmite, dh refuses to sing that line. Now penal substitution, there's a subject we could discuss on this thread Grin See I kind of get it....but only if alongside other atonement theories for a more balanced view. Have thought upon it long and hard!! I like the Christus Victor thing :)

PI - welcome :) I hope you can find a church right for you. Sometimes God seems to call us to places which don't seem to fit quite right then makes it clear why later on! Whereabouts are you in the country?

I've had a lovely morning, our new goddaughter's baptism service, was very special indeed and I feel a lot better, faith crisis averted I think!

Oh Panda - don't tempt me - would love to be at the launch of his new album!! :) His last one is still one of my faves...

So sad about Whitney Houston. I was a fan in my younger years. She was so young :(

HallelujahHeisBorntoMary · 12/02/2012 16:00

I'm another one who sings love of God, rather than wrath of God.

I love how deep the fathers love for us, the tune is haunting and its very expressive, but I can't sing the 2 verses:

"Behold the Man upon a cross
My guilt upon His shoulders
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers

It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished
His dying breath has brought me life
I know that it is finished"

Mostly because I still maintain I would NOT be among the mockers/scoffers.

madhairday · 12/02/2012 16:09

Ah now Mary, I always find in those verses a depth I cannot quite capture. I know what you mean, but I think it is perhaps referring to our sin as being part of the mocking, our inability to match up to God's standards, and in that the miracle of grace is so very much bigger? There is something in those verses that grabs a response from me.

practicallyimperfect · 12/02/2012 16:24

I am in a small village on outskirts of Leeds. Methodist is about same, I went a few years ago. Will keep looking. There are lots of churches in Leeds, it is just distance from home.

Hope you have a lovely time in Stockholm, somewhere I've always fancied visiting.

madhairday · 12/02/2012 16:42

Ah Leeds. I know someone there - will ask them about good churches. So are you looking for lively but not OTT, not too traditional, friendly, don't mind which denomination? :)

madhairday · 12/02/2012 16:49

Oh sorry, so you want to find a more local church rather than travel into Leeds? It is difficult when there is not one too near I know. Does the local C of E church offer different types of services or only one?

PandaG · 12/02/2012 17:40

Interesting thoughts. I don't have a problem with singing the wrath of God - he is just, and part of his justice, is, for me, a righteous anger - but, his great love for us provides us with the way to be justified, and escape his anger through Jesus. For me, part of appreciating how great His love is for me is to understand a bit of what his love through Jesus has saved me from - his wrath. I've been studying Romans this year, and see plenty of references to His wrath in the first couple of chapters, but Paul goes on to talk about God's faithfulness, and our justification by faith. I'd love to hear your further thoughts?

I also love 'How deep the father's love for us'. Mary, I am really moved by those 2 verses. I know there are times when I do mock God, by my behaviour, my attitudes and my thoughts. I know for sure that it was my sin that held him there, along with everyone else's. But I also know for sure, that the punishment for my sin is finished upon the cross.

practicallyimperfect · 12/02/2012 17:52

Thansk MHD. I think I am being too fussy. DutchOma made a very good point on my other thread about there being no perfect church. I think I would like somewhere dh is comfortable though, as I will be a bit upset of he never comes to church with us. Silly I know.

I don't mind travelling. We went to St George's in city centre, which was great but so big. I know someone who went there for 2 years and people still kept asking if they were new. And I like being part of a church community, which I suppose is more difficult at a distance.

I will stop stressing about it. I am pregnant, which is making me over think everything. I love the people at my church, but the hit and miss element is frustrating. But then I am a super organised, timetable kind of person!

This morning we had immortal, invisible which I love.

marmiteandhoney · 12/02/2012 19:01

We had immortal, invisible, too: 'tis only the splendour of light hideth thee'. Lovely song. Some other songs in the same awe-and-wonder-sciencey-God-in-nature vein, too (cos of John 1 reading) but can't for the life of me remember what! And a song at the end which was a random NEH that no one knew.

gingercurl · 12/02/2012 19:21

Please wave from me, Marmite.
Given your time constraints and travel companions, I think you've probably covered the main points in your itinerary. I've PMed you a few tips.

HallelujahHeisBorntoMary · 12/02/2012 19:27

Ah well, see that is the difference in our theology Panda, I don't believe it was my sin that put him there at all. Also I have heard people claim that if we were in the crowd prior to Jesus' crucifixion, we would have mocked him too - and I can't accept that I would do that either, although some would out of fear or not wanting to be different from the crowd. But I've never been one of the crowd. I do believe God can be angry, but I don't believe that the only way his anger could be dispelled was by killing Jesus on the cross. I've thought about it a lot, and whatever I do, I cannot reconcile that image of a wrathful God killing Jesus for our sins with how I experience God. I'm not saying I've got it right, but any other way "does not compute, Captain".

Original poster
DutchOma · 12/02/2012 19:47

Unless you are going to claim that you are perfect, you will have to come to terms with the fact that there are bits of you that God, being totally just and perfect, cannot accept. We would not have a chance of a relationship with God if Jesus had not died to atone for our sin.
God is justly angry, to me that is the whole point. How can you satisfy God's love?

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 12/02/2012 19:52

It's the theology which gets me with ICA too, I just can't sing the 'wrath of God' . It presents a morally repugnant picture of God as vindictive which I just can't square with God as loving and forgiving, which is how I experience him. I prefer Christus Victor -- Christ defeats death and sin. 'Jesus Christ: defeating death and sin for over 2,000 years, and still going strong' Smile

Our Vicar was away this morning and it was Methodist Sunday, which normally means everything feels out of joint -- he didn't do the Peace Shock! But we did have Be Thou My Vision and Great Lord and Father of Mankind (giving up with the acronyms as I can't get them ) although the downside is that I have lost my voice and can't sing.

practicallyimperfect · 12/02/2012 20:01

Be thou my vision is another favourite. I love the Rend Collective Experiment version. I listen on my walk to work.

I don't think wrath necessarily means vindictive. Actions have consequences, sins have punishments. I don't receive the punishment I deserve because Jesus took on my sins. I see it like disciplining my toddler. Sometimes he does things that drive me insane, doesn't stop the love, but it needs dealing with.

Tuo · 12/02/2012 21:04

PI Welcome. I am quite near you geographically, but don't know if I can help much, because (a) I've only been going to church here for a year or so, and (b) I like my services quite traditional and 'high'. Mind you, I would say that it's worth persevering with things that feel unfamiliar at first. I grew up in the CofE, in a church that was traditional but very 'low', and I struggled with incense and singing everything [I'm also a bit tone deaf] and things at first, but I quite like it now. (DD has started being a server, and afterwards her hair smells of incense for ages... Smile) I like that the CofE seems very accepting of different norms... some people in my service genuflect and cross themselves, others (including me) don't because that's not something I've ever done...

Good hymns at yours this morning, niminy. And I love 'Immortal, invisible' too. We had 'Alleluia, sing to Jesus', and, yes, like Marmite, some fairly random things that no-one knew... The choir was on holiday too. Someone should really think to ensure that the hymns are well known when we've got no choir.

I hope you have a great holiday Marmite. Gingercurl, I never realised you were Swedish...!

gingercurl · 12/02/2012 22:14
Wink
gingercurl · 12/02/2012 22:15

Marmite, I've tired PMing you again.

Bluetinkerbell · 12/02/2012 22:21

ginger jag talar lite Svenska Wink followed Swedish language course for 3 years a few years ago when still living in Belgium