Hallelujah He is Here - Chataway

[DutchOma]

Well here you are then I don't post often, but just to save Nickel a job...

Oh dear, Nickel... That sounds difficult. Does Someone have any qualities that you might be able to make use of without him driving you totally up the wall? I am thinking that one way round it might be to say 'Well, I'd do it if things were different, but obviously I'm busy at the moment with dd/the shop/the choir/having a life [don't say 'and I'd be crap'], so I could maybe take it on, but only if Someone were prepared to help with the correspondence/minuting of meetings/whatever [no idea exactly what the role entails...]. That way you'd limit Someone's involvement but would also get support to ensure that you do it properly. But this only works if Someone is workable-with. And from what you say, he might not be. Good luck!

Badvoc... meant to say that I had a great Bishop experience last weekend too. Have posted about it on the prayer thread, so won't repeat, but it was really useful to me personally.

Oh, and good on you with your campaigning.

that's an idea.
Unfortunately St Michael's CWs already know about the WI secretary role (although they probably think i'm putting myself down) and they also know how bad my memory is!

He's kind of hard to talk to - he seems to be listening, and seems to be useful, but then he'll not do the thing he agreed was a good plan, or he'll change his mind without informing you etc. I can't decide whether he's doing it because he forgets or genuinely doesn't get round to it, or if he's doing it because he's being obtuse.
But you can't approach him after you've discussed it, because he makes out that he's being pressurized.

found the canterbury pcc secretary handbook so i'll read through it and see if I can do it.
PCC meeting is tonight, so if I don't offer tonight and noone else comes forward then Someone will get the role!

ooh nickel that is a difficult one....unfortunately in PCCs there are always going to be those who are on the more ermmm....difficult side You have enough to do with your business and having a young baby to care for without worrying about taking more on. Might be a case of acceptance and trying to work with Someone - completely sympathise, having had experience of several Someones on PCCs/other committees. Hard going.

Bec - wow - sounds like you do indeed have guidance there and yes, Bishops often nail it spot on. I agree fully about the FSMs and posted it on fb etc, hardly anyone seemed interested, yet another tory agenda slipping through (don't get me started here...)

Mary....oh hard for you too. TUO has great advice. Hope you come to the best solution for you.

Busy here with work and plans and writing and just general living. I'm trying not to be on MN so much atm, as it was taking too much time, so apologies for not being around so much. doubtless will get back into old habits soon...

Thanks all...I knew you would all be horrified too [anger]

I just dont know what to do. Well, I do but I am very nervous of doing it!!!

nickel I have just been elected to the PCC and I have to say I found the first meeting last month a real eye opener So many people in so many different roles and all with such different ideas...bound to be a few fireworks!! I was doing the minutes actually (the usual lady was away and the Rev asked me) so I couldnt really be as "involved" in the discussion as I would have liked...

We were actually talking about the role I am thinking of applying for and I was deeply saddened when one of the PCC told me that some members of the congregation would withdraw financial support if the PCC helped with the funding (30% of the stipend is to come from PCC funds) for the children and youth worker....sigh....what is wrong with people???

In another 25 years my church will be a beautiful medieval building on a hill, but it will be empty

I feel VERY strongly that the church (whatever denomination) can no longer just provide religious services. They have to provide other services that people in the community need....CAP advice sessions, parental courses for young families, cookery skills, going into the schools and organising lunch clubs etc...there is so much I want to do and I dont know how to do it or even if I am the right person to do it

Arrghh.......

...oh, and I dont know whether I could still be on the PCC and do this role as well? (although I was only elected for a year, not the usual 3 - vacant seat)

PCC is a total mind-mess
but i do love it (once you get past all the weird red tape and terminology)

i see why, though, about the funding. they think "well, you obviously don't need the funds, do you!"

you should be able to, as long as you are willing to leave the room when your role is discussed (or conflict of interest)

i very firmly believe that our church should be used for non-church stuff - the fixed pews means it's most perfect for concerts and plays.

Where I go, they sold the pews (beautiful ones, they were...) to help pay for the restoration and to facilitate the cathedral being used for other purposes.

There was more fuss made about the pews than about anything else. Never mind that the heating didn't work and the electrics were dodgy and it was impossible to use the space flexibly because they couldn't be moved.

They were gorgeous and I shall miss them. But I shall get over it if I can sit through a service at any time between September and ... err ... well ... May this year without getting numb feet and hands with the cold. It'll be nice for people to be able to see their orders of service and to hear what's going on too.

But no, apparently we're all doomed because the pews have gone.

same problem in our church.
except we have to wade through mile and miles of red tape to remove them and sell them!
I don't mind. what i do mind is carpets and chairs that are so cushiony that you might as well have a carpet! (acoustics)

Ah Bec - yes I am with you. To see so many churches fading away and dying because people won't take risks and do new things and be a service to the community is so very sad. People seem desperate to hang on to the way things were at any cost, and so things don't move on. It's soooo frustrating. - it's the 10 people sitting in their pews metaphorically refusing to budge on anything. And all those PCC Someones grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I don't like pews.

They give me a numb bum and they're hard

the choir stalls have carpets on them.

all pews should have carpets

ours isn't thriving, yet.
but it will.

We need a forward-looking vicar who loves the tradition too.
it's a hard task, but someone who will look to the future, work out how we can get more people in to see what we do well.

Apparently, we're not allowed to ask the prospectives questions on Thursday.
It's their chance to meet us and to find out what they can about us, because they need to make a "presentation" to the interview committee on Friday!

I have been told it's also partly their chance to decide if they like us and can cope with us.
there are one woman and 2 men. (5 applied, 3 made the shortlist)
On the shortlisting team, there was a church warden from each church, and our CW seemed quite positive about the ones they shortlisted.
We're not allowed to know anything else, in case we're prejudiced...

CW said that I should hand DD to them all in turn to see how they handle it
I said it was a good way for us to see how well they handle children as a distraction at official things.

We are allowed to give our impressions of the candidates to the CW after Thursday. (which is fab, because if we like or dislike things, it means that we think we've been included in the decision-making)

tuo Oh, yes!! More parishioners seem to care about the fabric and fittings (which are important I know) than actually providing a christian service/s for our community and for our children....who are the future of our community!!!

nickel The person who gets this post will have to report to the PCC I think.

I texted one of the lay readers earlier about how the sermon had spoken to me and she is coming to see me on friday as she said "I can tell you need to talk about it"

It may well get the stage that children have seperate services...sigh. The PCC get complaints that the 1 family service per month is "too family orientated" What can you do?

Can I ask?.....What do you do in your churches/community to help/encourage/communicate with young families and children? Is there anything that has been a particular success/failure??

So glad to find people who agree with me here. We are all so right!

MHD - what's interesting is that we're really pretty traditional in many ways (liturgically, musically, blah-de-blah) and yet people do seem to be prepared to think outside the box in others. (I don't know much... I'm just a member of the congregation, not really party to the discussions... but that's the sense I get.)

Badvoc - interesting question. I've only been going to church for a couple of years (well, after a thirty-year fairly lengthy gap) and missed out the bit where I struggled with toddlers and what-have-you. But what I've seen is that simple acceptance that kids are kids and they do kid things... like move around and make a noise is the key. In the church we went to in America children were in church for the whole service. Sometimes they wandered around; sometimes they interrupted the sermon; sometimes parents took them out if they were making a ruckus; sometimes they didn't. Whatever - no-one turned a hair. Back in the UK there's 'junior church' which takes place during the first part of the service and comes back in for the Peace, unless it's a special service - e.g. Mothering Sunday or something, when the kids might be in for the whole service and the sermon might be aimed more at them, or they might read prayers or whatever. What strikes me is that in neither church (again, barring 'special occasions') have there been any concessions to the kids: no special songs or anything. They are simply and unquestioningly accepted as part of the service. This works for me, but - as I said - I don't have littleys. We're not overrun with kids, I must say, so perhaps it doesn't work all that well as a way of getting families in (or perhaps a city-centre cathedral is just a bit different from a local parish church) but I like it as an ethos. Incidentally, the same attitude of acceptance goes also for adults with LDs (as it ought to, of course), and I like that very much. I'd hate the idea of separate services...

Sorry for writing an essay... Hope it's useful.

Yes, I hate that idea too tuo but it has been mooted....sigh.

I am also back at my local church after a long break (I lived away for 12 years) and tbh I am a bit wary of being too "full on" - which is a character flaw of mine! -as it might not go down very well. That being said I was asked to stand for election as a PCC member as "we need new blood"!!

Atm we have 1 monthly family service where the dc stay for the whole service. Slightly shorter service and an interactive sermon. In all other services they go out for most of the service and come back in for communion. Bottom line; If we dont get more kids coming to church the sunday clubs will have close Its got that bad.

At least in my church they recognise the problem and are trying to be proactive in solving it, which is grounds for hope?...right?

I would like to suggest things like; CAP advice sessions, parenting courses, cookery courses, a drop in session/cafe once a week, monthly lunch clubs at local schools, music club etc....I have so many ideas swirling round me head!!!!

There are 2 large housing developments being built in our village - 1200 more homes - we need to reach out to these new families. At least I think we need to!

We have Mums and Tots three times a week, a lot of the parents/carers that come are not church members. At Christmas we have a service where they take part. Every Sunday service has a children's slot, then they go out three times out of four. If we have a fifth Sunday there is a sort of party atmosphere, last time we had it there were flags everywhere and some people came in national costume.

We have a summer holiday club which this year will (obviously) have an Olympic theme. We will have a barbecue on the Racecourse on the June Bank Holiday Monday, that is for all the family of course. As it will be totally freeit will have particular appeal to the teenagers that lurk on the Racecourse anyway.

Oooh Nickel, could you at least wear your bellydancing veil on Thursday? It would be a good way to test how inclusive the candidates are in their outlook.

Becaroo - we also have holiday clubs that are successful. To me though, the most important thing is how the congregation react when there are children in church, especially if they are playing up a bit. If people make a cats bum face the temptation is to never go back. If people smile at kids and play with them though it makes life sooo much easier for the parents and makes the kids feel wanted and welcomed. Our last minister also did well at coping with heckling from the children (never a good idea to ask the congregation a rhetorical question when my DS1 or DS2 is there ...). In short, I think a family atmosphere is important; that is that the kids are welcomed as part of the church family and that they know they are part of the church family, not just being tolerated while they accompany their parents. Sorry, it is something I feel strongly about. Rant over.

jaffa I agree completely. Many of our congregation is elderly...you know the type...they have sat in the same pew every sunday for 25 years...sigh. Out church is very "high" church IYSWIM? The Rev tries hard, but it can get quite dispiriting.

The role will be a really hard one, I think.

Family services are a mis-nomer, if you ask me.

Usually, it means that the service is full of "children's hymns" or more modern music, designed to keep the children engaged.

I'll tell you how to keep the children engaged:
Cut down the length of the service.
Take out the "talk" or the sermon, and replace it with something more interactive (like a short play or discussion)
Make sure the service has a set structure each time, and don't deviate.
make sure that the children have a child-friendly version of the service sheet (good ideas here)
Don't have too much music - 4 hymns/songs is plenty. (I would recommend having a rousing first and last - usually traditional hymns work well for this - and prayerful middle ones. The first is the introduction one (processional if you do that), the last is closing (before the final dismissal but after the last prayers), the 2nd between the reading and the gospel, and the 3rd after the peace). Eleanor thinks there's too long in the services with no music, so have a sung setting (gloria, Holy holy holy, creed (if you can find one!) and agnus dei).

I think the problem most churches have with trying to engage children is that they forget that actually, you don't need to dumb down. but they like routine. and everyone loves music

btw, what's wrong with sunday school?

at my original church, we went to sunday school in the church hall, while the adults went to the service, then we'd join the service at communion.
(st michael's used to have the children in for the first hymn, then send them out, and then they'd come back for the communion, but i think that's too disruptive)

bad - do what i do. make a list of our suggestions and comments and present them to the pcc.

jaffa
i will be leaving early to go off to dance, so i'll see what i'm wearing then

i like to think that i'm leading the way in showing that children are more than just tolerated.
my theory is, that if visitors see DD is an integral part of the service, then they'll feel better about their own children being there.