Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

Nooka, the JWs have a particular number associated with who is saved, and it is a very small one.

The doctrine of predestination is perfectly biblical and orthodox. Obviously, some branches of the church choose to place more emphasis on this than others.

I don't believe because I need solid proof. When they can prove it all to me that the Jesus was a miracle and Mary remained a virgin then I might have some faith. To be honest none of it makes sense to me.

Darwen's theory however makes much more sense and there's proof of evolution so that's way I chose to believe that theory.

Is their faith dead or living, Ariel?

Anyone can read the bible and theology textbooks as an academic exercise. They may even learn Greek to do so. But unless their lives are transformed by the words, their faith never really takes off. Perhaps it never existed at all.

None of us knows who God has chosen, which is why Christians continually share their faith with others.

Yes, its perfectly biblical and most christians can't stomach it. Well, its another answer for the OP to present to her confirmation class 'Some people don't believe in God because he doesn't want them'. She should, actually, to see what answer she gets.

Here is the Anglican article of faith (Article 17)

17. Predestination and election Predestination to life is the eternal purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he has consistently decreed by his counsel which is hidden from us to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he has chosen in Christ out of mankind and to bring them through Christ to eternal salvation as vessels made for honour. Hence those granted such an excellent benefit by God are called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working at the appropriate time. By grace they obey the calling; they are freely justified, and made sons of God by adoption, are made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, they walk faithfully in good works and at the last by God's mercy attain eternal happiness. The reverent consideration of this subject of predestination and of our election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant and inexpressible comfort to the godly and to those who feel within themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, putting to death the deeds of the sinful and earthly nature and lifting their minds up to high and heavenly consideration establishes and confirms their belief in the eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ and kindles a fervent love towards God. But for inquisitive and unspiritual persons who lack the Spirit of Christ to have the sentence of God's predestination continually before their eyes is a dangerous snare which the Devil uses to drive them either into desperation or into recklessly immoral living (a state no less perilous than desperation). Furthermore we need to receive God's promises in the manner in which they are generally set out to us in holy Scripture, and in our actions we need to follow that will of God which is clearly declared to us in the Word of God.

I think most Christians have a problem with double predestination (being predestined to the fiery furnace), but not with single (to cease to exist when you die).

We can see with our own eyes (and read posts on Mumsnet) that some people never hear the calling of God, let alone have an opportunity to respond to it.

Re: the link, probably not to your satisfaction, I'm afraid. I remember finding out about (double?) predestination when I was studying the Reformation, and it struck me as a 16 year old as the most absurd idea I had ever heard. I just did a quick search now and Wikipedia wouldn't allow me on, so I linked to the next one down.

What does the calling of God sound like? How do I know if I'm hearing it? And what do I have to do if I ever hear it?

I am not a theologian. I clicked on this thread because it was in Most Active (which I think is allowed?) So your challenging questions won't get a clever answer from me. Sorry.

Wow. Predestination. I didn't realise they had mumsnet in 17th century Scotland.

You know Grimma, you're right. From the outside it does look like so much bunkum. I find these threads fascinating because as a reflective person I can totally see that if I did not have the deep faith I do I would be talking along these lines. What you all say makes sense.

But there's that small matter of faith, and God's presence, and love, and mercy. And despite all the earthquakes and cancer and evil and crap there is that love working through the world and within people - I believe. I believe there is good because there is God. I cannot find it within myself to not believe - like Cheerful Yank, it's just a knowledge, borne in experience and found once again every day.

I've doubted, I've ranted and raved, I've read the books. I have chronic lung disease and remain ill and un-healed. I've heard all the 'God's will' rubbish alongside the lovelier people who just listen. I cringe at the jargon-istic crap spouted along the lines of some unmentionable previous posts here

And yet in all this, I remain convinced, and I find again and again that I am utterly fulfilled, utterly entranced by the presence of God in my life.

You can say I am brainwashed. You can say I am using a crutch. You can say I'm irrational and childish and all the other things. But I remain convinced. I know that the gospel looks like foolishness. I know that. But for me it is life.

God is a made-up concept and part of the story that organised religions use to control people.

With a name like yours, of course you're fluffy!

I was hoping someone like you or CY would appear to deal with predestination - atheists just find it one more argument against God, and presumably calvanists just think well you would, you inquisitive and unspiritual person (the devil is doing a piss-poor job of driving me into desperation or into recklessly immoral living, I'll have you know).

WTF is that doing in the Anglican articles? If it doesn't mean what it appears to mean, shouldn't it be revised?

Good question.

I've done a whole lot of thinking about predestination and dear old Calvin. Now there is some stuff I can get along with. I do believe God has foreknowledge and stands outside time and all that. Therefore there is good grounds for saying God's 'elect' are those who choose for themselves. I find it very hard to tie in the doctrine of predestination with the doctrine of free will. It's all something of a paradox. I can fully understand why atheists see it as one more argument against God - after all, it seems unfair.

Now, I don't pretend to have all (or even some) of the answers. I have this feeling that God is just. That God is fair. But I really have no idea how it all works. That would be somewhat arrogant in any case.

I'm sort of calvinist in some senses, mainly in the whole God being sovereign and the bible being the Word of God thing I'm a fan of his stuff on grace too. The whole pre-destination thing is more Augustine inspired, and I have some inklings Calvin was thinking along the more foreknowledge lines, but that is from studies years ago so I couldn't say why

This is an excellent essay on Article 17 and the Doctrine of Predestination. It is illustrated well by this thread :)

www.churchsociety.org/crossway/documents/Cway_070_Allister5.pdf

I think it is fairly important to distinguish between the thoughts of John Calvin (who influenced the Anglican reformers) and latter-day Calvinists (such as the one in the link which rendered Ariel speechless.

Sarcasm eh? I did respond to your question by the way, but not immediately because I was having my tea.

Perhaps you missed it

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.

The questions you asked in a further post cannot be answered by a stranger on the internet.

I wouldn't read that to be about predestination in Calvanistic terms (ie it is foreordained who will go to hell and who will go to heaven). I've certainly heard Anglicans claim to be better than Catholics because with no concept of original sin everyone is savable from the get go. I'd read it more as being more that everyone is called but only some are saved because they are receptive and find faith, faith being the primary prerequisite. I think that there are lots of verses in the New Testament that would support that. It's certainly part of the Catholic concept of reconciliation. I would also have thought that the verses in Matthew about judgement were pretty straightforward to interpret, they are all about people's actions - the inheritors of the kingdom of heaven are essentially those who acted right (when I was hungry you gave me to eat etc).

Madhairday, I've always seen faith like that, as something fairly incomprehensible to those that don't have it, but incredibly important to those that do.

I wouldn't mind hearing other thoughts on faith.

Marthastew you took the words out of my mouth.

God is an invention of man designed to control man.

Salvation by works is not an Anglican doctrine, nooka.

Works are an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but in themselves, meaningless in terms of salvation.

We are all made in the image of God, so do do good things for other people. It is part of our nature.

I don't do predestination.

I am being forced to clean my house by a teenage babysitter so I have to go, but will be back later.

Yes I agree that part of human nature is to do nice things for other people. Another part is to be selfish.

I don't really care about doctrine as being an atheist it's all irrelevant to me now. But my sister is CoE ordained and my BIL will be in May and neither of them have ever talked to me about predestination, although they would both very much like for me to 'see the light' and I know pray for that to happen. If seeing the light is not being saved then I seriously wonder what is the point. Plus surely the Sermon on the Mount is quite important? I was brought up a Catholic and along with plenty of bad stuff about guilt and inherent badness I'm glad that at least the idea of going to heaven was open to all (as was hel for that matter). Of course there was the strange idea of limbo too.

So you're saying that doing nice things for people, and being good doesn't amass you any credit with God? Are they pointless? What about charity?

'm not trying to insult you, by the way, just trying to understand what you're saying.

To be accurate 'being nice' isn't just innate to humans, apes (particularly bonobos) have been shown altruism towards others of their species, as do other animals.

Apologies for grammar, should read "have shown altruism"