Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

Just thought it was a really poor comparison.

And doesn't Augustine suggest then that we have no free will? Or am I missing something? I thought man's free will was how Christians excused holy wars etc.

The concept of God, and heaven, and hell for everlasting punishment of baddies, is a very comforting one.

It sounds just like the sort of thing you would tell a child whose mother had been killed by a bad person. "It's okay, you will see her again in heaven and the baddy willl go to hell to have red hot pokers up the jacksie for eternity, and in heaven you will be loved, and you are not alone now because, ummm, God is watching over you. Don't be frightened."

And the sentiment behind this concept is very kind, and very humane, but also - it's comforting for children.

And I am not a child. I believe in chemistry, biology and physics. I believe in examining the evidence of a given situation and accepting the most likely conclusion.

If I could have a faith, I would probably be much happier. My nanny would be in heaven waiting for me. But as it is, I know that she has been dead in the ground for 25 years, and she's not coming back. She's gone. She lives on in the memories of those who loved her. Wishes do not change reality, or biology.

Yes, and i believe evolution itself is incredible - science can answer 'how' (natural selection etc) but it can't say 'why'. Why? Why any of it? There's nothing wrong with thinking beyond science and stepping outside of what we know. And let's face it, we all have faith whether we think we do or not - Atheism is a belief system as Atheists have 100% faith that there is sweet FA. The starving children in Africa - there is enough food and wealth in this world for nobody to starve, we could end it tomorrow without a greater being having to intervene.

Oh dear, I'm a bit behind here!

Just popping on for the Dawkins bit... HolofernesesHead, not wanting to put words in your mouth, but I don't think that Dawkins (as in selection at the level of the gene rather than the individual or species) was really relevant to your argument - was it what you meant to get into?

It sounds more as if you were talking more generally about mankind's instinct to compete for survival? And that the word of god was all about saying that 'competing' with your fellow man isn't necessary or desirable, and that in giving it up you are 'saved'? (Sorry if I'm misinterpreting.)

If so, how does this translate to, say, modern day British society? The welfare state, the fact that muggings and murders are actually relatively rare, the way that on the whole humans tend to work fairly cooperatively in a civil society? Is that possibly what god was on about?

Obviously there are a lot of uncivilised and downright nasty aspects to modern day society, but humans have taken great pains to put justice systems in place to deal with these - and build hospitals, schools etc with public money. I can't believe that all this is down to religion - it makes far more sense that people simply do it because it benefits everyone to live in a civilised society.

Why? Why any of it?
We've touched on this already. Why do you think there needs to be a 'why?'

There's nothing wrong with thinking beyond science and stepping outside of what we know.

True - so long as you know that these are just thought experiments and may have absolutely no bearing on what is actually real.

Atheism is a belief system as Atheists have 100% faith that there is sweet FA.

actually most people who identify themselves as atheists don't have '100% faith'. They think god is (a) unprovable and (b) extremely improbable.

A thread on MN may have "touched on 'why' already" but I haven't!! For me, accepting that things just ARE - that the Universe just IS - isn't that simple. If it is for others then, great. I said in my first post that I am still on the fence in terms of my own beliefs as the OP asked why we find it so difficult to believe. I find it difficult because I can quite easily switch between marvelling over the complexity of our world and everything in it and thinking "oh well, it just is". What I don't understand is why people feel the need to make people who have faith look like they are living in fairytale land and need some sort of wake up call?

"What I don't understand is why people feel the need to make people who have faith look like they are living in fairytale land and need some sort of wake up call?"

I would guess that it's something to do with the fact that church and state are so historically intertwined. It's a political thing. Fine if everyone has no problem with the church wielding power and agrees with everything they do - if not then it is fair to challenge it.

If the church's defence for being unelected wielders of power is that 'the church is God's will and you may not like it but that's the way it is' then it's also fair to say 'hang on a minute, you can't even begin to prove what God's will is, for all you know you're living in fairytale land...'.

A thread on MN may have "touched on 'why' already" but I haven't!!
That's fine of course - just if this is something that interests you, if you've the time you might want to know there was something relevant upthread.

Agree with Bobbin. The faith groups - especially the CofE - get a priveliged place at so many tables. Schools, House of lords, all sorts of committees etc, they get to pontificate on ethics. Well, then they need to be accountable and be able to defend why they deserve this special status. If they want to retain this power - well, don't be suprised if someone questions whether the Emporer has clothes.

If we had a properly secular state, this wouldn't apply in the same way. Note how religions thrive in the constitutionally secular USA. Secularism is the best protection for the free practice of whatever religion you want to follow.

(sometimes I can spell Emperor...)

Hermeneutics is just selective interpretation of the Bible given a fancy name and a university degree.

The Bible is big enough, vague enough and easily contradictory enough to allow you to selectively interpret it to support pretty much any position. All you need is a few "It needs to be taken in the context of the society that wrote it" and "This part isn't supposed to be taken literally, it's a metaphor for something completely different" and "When we bring this into the modern world we need to redefine what it means" and you're there.

It amazes and saddens me that so much mental effort and so many years of time have been sunk into hermeneutics (and apologetics) which could've been spent doing something useful. I bet if you asked Jesus, he'd have said you should be out there helping the poor rather than poring over a book and constructing elaborate fantasies about why what it says isn't what it actually means.

Since the begining of time people have used religion and gods (lots of different ones) to fill in the gaps of our own understanding of the world. E.g the sun and the moon god made night and day before they knew how the world turns.

We now have very compelling evidence that the world isn't only 5 thousand years old, that dinasours roamed the earth for many many years before humans, that we and all the animals evolved, that if all humans came from just two people we would all be related and a species of dribbling idiots

Science has proof of these things weather you choose to believe them or not religion asks you just to have faith based on a book that was written a couple of thousand years ago and edited by the church.

Religion still plays on the gaps that we don't know, the main one of these being what happens after you die, I think a lot of people take comfort from the fact that if you are good then you will go to heaven.

I've just gone back through the thread and see what you mean Grimmie I read about the first few hundred posts then just dived in. I suppose given the subject matter there won't be much that hasn't already been said. It's an interesting thread - could so easily argue either side too which is annoying as I sometimes wish I could have a firm belief one way or another!

"Atheism is a belief system as Atheists have 100% faith that there is sweet FA."

Absolutely incorrect, atheism is a lack of belief so cannot be described as a belief system at all. There are agnostic atheists so the 100% statement is also absolutely incorrect.

"The starving children in Africa - there is enough food and wealth in this world for nobody to starve, we could end it tomorrow without a greater being having to intervene."

Now, in intelligent debate it's bad manners to move the goalposts to suit one's own agenda. My reference to starving children in Africa was in direct response to your notion that death may well not be sad, and that we CHOOSE to see death as a tragedy. The politics of Africa and inconsistencies in world food distribution are completely irrelevant to the point.

"What I don't understand is why people feel the need to make people who have faith look like they are living in fairytale land and need some sort of wake up call?"

Agree with what others have said about this. Will add that I, personally, don't care what people do in their churches, synagogues, temples etc, just keep it out of government policy, away from my children. And if you're going to come onto an internet forum don't whinge when you're called out on it. The reason we've had some really interesting debate and discussion here is because the christians, on the whole, haven't taken offence and flounced. I get really pissed off with offended religious people, ffs some muslims will kill you for offending them.

And OTOH, there's plenty of religious people who think unbelievers need a 'wake up call' . You know, I've never had an atheist come doorstepping to push her views or push a tract through my letterbox

Yes, of course organised religion's unelected power over people's lives occurs all over the world. Here, the local vicar may have the power to exclude your child from the nearest state school for not being a frequent enough church attender. In Afghanistan, children are excluded from ANY schools - in the name of 'God's will' - simply for being female.

Grimma, that made me think of a really funny comment I read on another forum. One poster said that religious people were no worse than homosexuals who believed what they were was right and the forum on the whole supported equality for homosexuals, hence, why not the religious. This prompted the best response I've read in a long time

" There is a difference, you don't get homosexuals knocking your door on a Sunday morning wanting to stick their cock in your mouth"

Notfluffyatall - when you say keep it away from your children... What do they do in school? I have had an interesting debate with my partner about this the other day. He is very anti religious. I would say even tho I don't believe myself I am more in the live and let live group. My daughter goes to a normal state school not a church one. But they say grace before they eat, they learn songs, the other day she came home singing he has the whole world in his hands. And they learn the stories from the bible. I have no issue with this, I did all this stuff in school again not a church school. Partner got cross the other day when daughter said there was a rainbow and it was there to remind us how wonderful the world is and about Noah and his arc. He said that they shouldn't be telling her stuff like that and should have taught her about the light refraction being the reason, bearing in mind she is only 5 I don't think she would understand that!
I think the stories from the bible even if you don't believe them have good morals and have no problem with her learning them, I still remember learning about the good Samaritan in assembly and it had a big effect on me about being kind to others. I think she will make her mind up when older and knows All the arguments each way.

They do also learn other religions and they celerbrate the different holidays from each.

Noah and his arc

I would be very annoyed if my child was taught religion at school as 'fact'. It's inappropriate and invasive. What about children who are from families of a different religion or no religion - do they have to say grace too?

HouseworkProcrastinator, out of interest, what is the good moral behind the story of God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son and then, at the last minute, saying "Ha-hah! Only kidding!"

I've got no problem with my children being taught about the different world religions. I do have a problem with them being taught to worship. Telling them "Hindus believe..." is very different to telling them to recite "The Lord is my shepherd..."

And yes of course, children should be taught about religions.

Bobbin - I'm not sure about children of other faiths I haven't actually looked into it that much because I haven't taken offence to it. I would have thought if a parent did have a problem then that would be taken into account and they wouldn't go to assembly or say grace not sure. I do know there is one Jahova witness child who went into a different class when they were doing Christmas stuff but a few of the Muslim children didn't so I guess that's on the parents request and what they feel comfortable with.

Heresiarch - I am guessing they are selective of what stories they tell them. I don't know an awful lot of the bible I guess most of what I know I learned in school so they were mainly nice stories with some sort of message of kindness. Again haven't spoken to the teachers about this because it is not something that concerns me so I don't know if they are sat down and taught as fact or read to them the same as they would the hungry catapillar or something.

Ooooh, you've hot on a bugbear of mine HouseworkProcrastinator.

My daughter probably gets similar things to your daughter, and I hate it. If anyone, however, told her that rainbows were some god sent reminder of anything I'd be making an appointment to see the teacher. I don't mind songs and stories so much but again, anyone even hints at her that they're true stories and I'll not be a happy bunny. Grace would be a no-no. Perfectly good explanation for the food that she's about to eat that doesn't involve a thank you to anyone except the person that cooked it. They have assemblies every Monday, one of these per month should be religious (christian), her school is pretty wishy-washy about it all. I have the right to withdraw her from these if I choose, the thing is my daughter is a very introverted, shy child, to single her out like this would destroy her so I'm forced to go along with it. I am prepared to debunk her however, as required. The stories from the bible are a bit 'meh' if you ask me, there are far better alternatives. And how anyone finds the drowning of almost the entire world population, including animals, a suitable story for small children I will never understand.

You'd be amazed just how much your daughter will understand, there's some fab wee films on youtube that give really simple scientific explanations about everything, rainbows, thunder storms (another favoutite to be attributed to god), even evolution and the cosmos, aimed at kids. My daughter just turned 5 in December and she's quite the little scientist, she could tell you how rainbows come about.