Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

"Well...a lot of people died under Pol Pot in the name of no religion, eh?"

Pol Pot made himself a god that he demanded his people worship. Religion is just another form of totalitarianism.

I'm sure if we wanted to start quoting horrors done in the name of religion the list would be endless. Name one horror committed in the name of atheism. Bearing in mind that communism is NOT atheism.

Well, I am brilliant. Really. You never saw such a clever person :o

"Wow Rational, do you find everyone who doesn't agree with you on other things irrational - hence the name?"

I only say people are being irrational when they are being irrational.

"Well, I am brilliant. Really. You never saw such a clever person"

I know this, you are a very fluffy enigma

Rational, rationally religion must have evolutionary benefits to have survived - most of them pretty obvious (removal of non-child-producing life options for women, proscribing of contraception, community support structure etc etc). Some much less obvious (promotion of viable celibate life for surplus children, reduction in mental health problems through promotion of regular prayer/meditation practice, cleanliness rules). If it could be proved that a society with a certain level of religious practice was more evolutionarily successful than a society without it, would you participate? Because IMO quite a lot of people in religious places of worship have effectively followed that very rational path to their current state of belief.

"As I said, otherwise very intelligent and well educated people believing in god is the greatest enigma to me." and yet it happens. Not everything is rational, not everything has to be rational in order to be of value.

You couldn't convince me of the existence of God for all the snow in Kazakhstan and yet others still believe, some every bit as intelligent as me

I just accept that I don't have the capacity to understand why they believe. I also accept that whilst I am totally convinced I am right, that they are equally convinced they are right.

I must say though that your abrasive style doesn't make me warm to atheism as a lifestyle choice (despite being a devout atheist of many many years).

None of the above, some of it correct, some of it dubious, makes it true. There is no evidence, no amount of "it's good for you" (which I seriously doubt) will make it true.

"...atheism as a lifestyle choice"

Jeeez, is atheism a lifestyle choice now? I thought it was just a lack of belief in god/s.

How come when believers on the thread preach and postulate about their god we must respect their beliefs? They wax lyrical about their 'faith' and awe and wonder etc etc and we must not question that.

Yet I am accused of being arrogant and abrasive for holding my stance so firmly?

It's not your manner that's arrogant, Rational, it's the claim that yours is the only - ahem - rational position.

Well said Kewcumber. I love atheists like you with whom it is possible to have a reasonable debate ! I totally accept that you, like many others, can't and don't believe, but it is so good to hear that equally you accept that some people can and do. You don t write off those who have differing views as irrational.

It is. If any one of the believers here or indeed anywhere can give me one piece of evidence for their god then I'll rethink. At the moment there is not a shred of evidence. To believe something is true without a shred of evidence is irrational. That's a fact.

Here, it's not me just making shit up dictionary.reference.com/browse/irrational

" I love atheists like you with whom it is possible to have a reasonable debate ! "

I've not been rude to anyone. I'm the one being called arrogant and abrasive.

It's ok to hold an entirely opposing view to someone else, it does not make me a bad person in general. Is this not supposed to be a debate?

It would be a debate if you would accept that other people have different views to yours......

I do accept that. I just won't say their views are rational when they're not.

Making a bit of headway then. Signing off now, I'm off to the pub to see some of my irrational friends.

Have fun

Just to add though. I never said I didn't accept other people have views, that would be silly, I know they do.

"Jeeez, is atheism a lifestyle choice now? I thought it was just a lack of belief in god/s."

In my case it is both. I meant that you don't come across as a compelling reason why atheism as a way of life (as opposed to a simple "there is no god") is a very nice thing to be. No doubt you don't intend to be, but I'm still able to comment on your unsuitedness (?) as an Ambassador of Atheism such is the satisfaction of an internet forum.

And I do think you have been rather abrupt and rude on here - you don't have to say fuck a lot to be rude, as I'm sure someone of your great intellect and rationality will know. Your comment to me which I cut and pasted above was rather sarcastic and patronising and... well... just a teensy bit rude. And I'm sitting on the atheists bench.

I don't a particular respect for people who are religious, I don't feel I need to respect someone who believes the opposite of me any more than I need to respect every atheist who believes the same as me.

I do believe I should be tolerant to everyone who wishes to worship whatever they like. I don't even mind if it impacts on me a little because really its not a bad thing, is it to be a little inconvenienced so that others are free to worship as they please?

I even happily take the Watchtower for the JW's who knock on my door and read it and smile nicely at them.

Actually, all this talk of rationalism is making me think of Descartes and Spinoza, and I'd love to talk about why this philosophy is inadequate got me, but I'm too sick to do it tonight. Hopefully I'll be back tomorrow and we can talk about what rationalism is and what it xan and can't say about the world.

"as I'm sure someone of your great intellect and rationality will know"

Lol, I left school at 16 with 2 o' levels. I have since worked in various shops, a call centre and various other low paid, undervalued positions. I never said I was intellectual, others did, almost as a way of bashing me. Especially the one who used really bad grammar and spelling while doing so. It's not hard, why can't people just spell and use the correct grammar.

I haven't been disrespectful or intolerant. The person who is being singled out is me. I have stated facts, the fact is that belief in the supernatural is, by definition, irrational. I can't change that, I wouldn't want to change that to accommodate the irrational.

Everyone's views are being tolerated except mine. That is another fact.

Now, I really don't mind, being singled out, after all I'm not after the job of poster-girl for atheism

"why can't people just spell and use the correct grammar"

because they -

can't, because they never learnt properly
because they type fast and make typos and can't be bothered to go back and correct
because they are dyslexic

I'm sure there are more.

I haven't found it a particular problem understanding anything anyone has said so I don;t generally worry too much about it.

Of course you are perfectly entitled to.

It's not an insult to say that belief in religion is irrational though, is it? Surely that's the whole point of faith - believing in something which can't be proved or rationalised?

Don't think grammar and spelling is relevant to the argument either way though.

Interesting and possibly relevant piece in the Guardian - Even if there is a god, it doesn't matter whether you believe in him or not - by Julian Baggini.

"It's only important if you think that a God would seriously reward true believers and/or severely punish infidels, and I think the probability of such a petty, spiteful God existing is negligible. "

Because I believe in science.

Of course I am.

I'm not talking about obvious typos, fuck I make them myself, I also make mistakes when I'm typing too fast, no issue with that either. I'm not talking about dyslexia either. I'm talking about when there has been no effort to use grammar or spelling at all. Maybe it is because they never learnt properly, as I said, I left school at 16 with two O' levels, since then I have educated myself in lots of things. If I had left school being unable to write in a grammatically correct manner I would have learned how to in the interim. That's probably just me being arrogant and intellectual again though.

"It's not an insult to say that belief in religion is irrational though, is it? Surely that's the whole point of faith - believing in something which can't be proved or rationalised?"

Thank you.