Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

Oh, and I see violence as the outward and inevitable outworking of selfishness / self centredness that Augustine called 'original sin.' (Sorry again!)

Cheerful, interesting to hear about what Yank has meant at different times.

Does that make sense?
Dunno what the amoeba thinks, I probably would have said it did once - but now, nope. No sense at all. Sorry!

Were you a Christian, Grimma? I'm thinking back to a previous thread (the 'was Jesus gay?' one). Or am I muddling you up with someone else? If so, what changed, if you don't mind my asking?

For Jesus' sacrifice to be so meaningful and powerful required that he be faced with violence and ultimately killed. If Pilate had just thrown him in jail then (as you so eloquently put it) the cosmos would not have been changed.

As such, then, the people who perpetrated that awful violence upon Jesus were fulfilling god's plan for him. The roman soldier who thrust a spear into Jesus' side was following god's will. Pilate was doing what god wanted him to do.

God may or may not have seen it as punishment of Jesus, but the fact that Jesus - and, in particular, his death - would usher in a new relationship between god and man must have been something that god knew would happen and wanted to happen. So everything that led to that point, all the parts played by the people involved, were important parts of god's plan to ensure that Jesus would arrive at a point to make the ultimate sacrifice to save mankind.

And that must include Judas. If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus then Jesus wouldn't have been caught and so he wouldn't have been crucified and so wouldn't have sacrificed himself for us all. God's plan needed Judas to betray Jesus. Yet the Bible says that Judas' betrayal was motivated by Satan, not god. And Judas didn't exactly come out of it with showered with glory.

I dunno. As I said, I find the whole thing very difficult and confusing.

It is mind bogglingly deep, Snorbs. There's a line in Revelation that talks about 'the lamb who was slaughtered before the foundation of the world.' in John's Gospel Jesus says over and over that it is his choice to die, no one coerces him....

Holo - yes I was (I don't think I participated in the 'was Jesus gay' thread - that's the sort of title that sounds daft to me).

What changed? I suppose at university I was exposed to people who had different ideas, some of whom actively challenged me to think about my own. At some point none of it made sense any more - although I wanted it to, I loved the church I was raised in. I prayed earnestly for faith and ....nothing.

"Yes I agree a lot of evil has been done in the name of religion but just as much has been done when absolutly no religion has been involved at all."

Hmm, I doubt it

"people who had different ideas, some of whom actively challenged me to think about my own. "

This is all I'd ever ask anyone to do, think about your ideas, I mean really think about it. And when I say think about it I mean logically, using reason. These skills are applied in almost everything else of any consequence in your life, except religion. It seems lazy to me not to do this. The only conclusion any rational person could come up with is that it's a myth.

You may well go through a period of feeling despair and loss, it's been described to me as a feeling of grief when faith is lost but the transition through this is so enlightening and will give freedoms that you couldn't dream of.

I've been thinking about this a lot today and have come to the conclusion I can't truly and honestly describe myself as an atheist, even though I have no faith. The reason is religious music - at the risk of sounding like a bit of a twat, I can't imagine a world without Handel's Messiah, or Zadok the Priest, or Mozart's Requiem. The amount of sublime music Christianity has inspired is just wonderful. I feel full to bursting when I hear it sometimes. Probably endorphins or something

However that's a thread for another day.

Lol, even if I got my dream of an atheist world I can't go back in time and kill off Handel and Mozart, nor would I want to.

Just getting back to this thread...

The point about rendering according to works is not saying that salvation is by works. Nor is about what you do.

Works, in this context, means your whole character - thoughts/words/deeds.

The statement is a shot at the Jews who thought they could swan into heaven because of their birthright alone. Well, that wasn't enough. And you didn't have to be a Jew.

I don't know any Christians who think they can live a selfish life in the secure knowledge that they are saved. Everyone I know has had their lives transformed away from selfishness (insert any other negative characteristic) when they made the decision to follow Jesus instead of the ways of the world. However, I'm sure this verse would be relevent to them too.

I think it can be pretty unhelpful to take a single verse from the bible and try to use this to suit some purpose. A verse like this one has to be taken in context and measured up to other verses of a similar nature. The NT is pretty much a history book, and each part has a specific context. For example, Paul's letters were dealing with the issues in individual fledgling churches. Anything that Paul writes needs to be understood in the context in which it was written, and then modified to help us with our issues in the modern world.

Obviously the notion of salvation through faith alone, and salvation through works is slightly controversial. Some parts of the church think one thing and some think another. I like to think that Anglicans get it right :). A lot of the salvation by works is unfortunately tied up with corrupt practices in some churches, like paying to rush you through purgatory.

"A lot of the salvation by works is unfortunately tied up with corrupt practices in some churches, like paying to rush you through purgatory."

But is actual corruption just the extreme end of the scale whereby a Christian believes / does good deeds in order to be 'saved'?

You DOUBT that evil has been done when no religion is involved? really

So you think Fred West said a silent prayer as he cut bits off young women?

Hitler invaded Poland because he wanted to share the Good News?

The kids who chased my son's mate to his death were on their way home from Sunday School?

No.

People do evil things and sometimes they use religion as an excuse. Sometimes they dont.

Have another

Hmm

It was only a matter of time before this crock of shit was brought into the argument. Nothing quite like an Reductio ad Hitlerum to put things into perspective.

I never said that evil was always done through religion, try again.

As far as I can recall Fred West was brought up in a very christian household. The 'sin' concept featured highly in his psyche.

Hitler was catholic.

I have no idea, nor do I care due to the irrelevance of it, where the boys that chased your son's friend were coming from. Sad story but having no connection to it, like yourself, it's quite meaningless to bring it up.

So they were aligned to a named religion. Big fucking deal. Dont mean that they did things in the name of religion. A huge amount of people tick the CofE box in this country. Doesnt mean they are in any way religious. You know it and so do I.

Theres your crock of shit right there. Discount an argument because someone dares to mention Hilter. Goodwins law yada yada yada. Except it is relevent because he was one of the most evil people who ever lived. He didnt start a crusade in the name of God, he started one in order that he would become the most powerful man alive. WTF has that got to do with religion.

You are being hostile and pretty nasty. Why do you feel the need to back up your beliefs in that way?

How can you possibly know the ratio of non religious to religious evil anyway?

Speaking WTF - WTF does that last paragraph mean?

I dont give a flying fuck if you believe in God. Why should you care what I believe in?

'when absolutly no religion has been involved at all'

Is what I said.
It is what you responded to with your
Then I responded to your with a few examples of evil where no religion was involved.
Then you went all psuedo intellectual

HTH
LOL

Rational, please don't assume that those of us who are believers haven't ever thought logically or rigorously about our faith; that's patronising and insulting. Rational, intelligent people have been thinking about God down the ages, and they haven't unanimously reached the same conclusion as you. The implication that they should is arrogant in the extreme.

"Is what I said.
It is what you responded to with your
Then I responded to your with a few examples of evil where no religion was involved.
Then you went all psuedo intellectual"

My , was in response to the inclusion of "just as much", quote " ....but just as much has been done when absolutly no religion has been involved"

I would still argue that's true. The examples you gave did involve religion. Fred West was highly influenced by his christian upbringing. Nazi soldiers belt buckles were engraved with "Gott Mit Uns" (God wish us). As for the murderers of your son's friend? I have no way of knowing and it's irrelevant.

And since when was someone's intellect something to bash them with? I could quite easily point out that your grammar and spelling is atrocious and reflects a low intellect but I won't.

".....intelligent people have been thinking about God down the ages, and they haven't unanimously reached the same conclusion as you. "

That is the greatest enigma I am aware of.

Rational. Just to re iterate what Holo said. Our church is made up of a lovely mixture of people amongst whom are many doctors, lawyers, accountants etc etc. Are you saying they too are all irrational just because they have reached a different conclusion from yours ?

Yes.

Good grief, Rational, do you mean to sound so ridiculously arrogant?

Well...a lot of people died under Pol Pot in the name of no religion, eh?

Wow Rational, do you find everyone who doesn't agree with you on other things irrational - hence the name?

No but if that's the way I'm coming across by voicing my opinion then so be it. I can't change my opinion because you perceive it as arrogant. Nor can I be less 'intellectual' to suit OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere's needs. I don't do 'fick' speak.

As I said, otherwise very intelligent and well educated people believing in god is the greatest enigma to me. I just don't get it, never will. In order to believe in god one has to suspend all reason and rationale.