Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

I'm atheist and finding that out was an epiphany for me! I was unable to suspend my disbelief in order to find god.

I find atheism tremendously life affirming. This is it, this world and life, and isn't it enough?

I describe myself (only half seriously) as spiritually dead. Subscribe to no woo whatsoever and take nothing on faith.

I struggle to understand, as it has never been satisfactorily explained, why I should "respect" the religious. They show no respect for me or mine, interfering as they do in education, in policy, in woman's rights to bodily autonomy. I do not respect religious belief; in my opinion it is damaging.

Anyway. I don't "find it hard" to believe in god/s, because I fon't feel any need to try.

And furthermore, typing on an iPhone makes you appear illiterate.

HolofernesesHead, I suppose "mind bogglingly deep" is one way of looking at it. But it seems to me more that god's motives, methods and morals are questionable at best and downright perverse at worst. To be honest when I read the stories of (eg) Abraham and Isaac, or Sodom and Gomorrah, or the plagues of Egypt, then I tend to end up feeling much the same. I genuinely cannot see how those are examples of ethical behaviour on the part of an omniscient deity.

I find it hard to take seriously a religion that accepts bits of it's bible as absolutely the only way to live but disregards others. Picking and choosing the bits to believe seems illogical.

I also feel that religion and perticularly the christian version of god have been so distorted over the centuries, particularly by the patriarchy.

Most of our current christian religious festivals can be traced back to previous pagan festiavals and are not christian in origin at all.

As for other god or gods I don't have enough knowledge...

But, they'll tell you, that was the OT, the NT is much fluffier, it's all 'interpretation' you see. And anyway they just ignore the nasty bits and cherrypick the nice bits.

that's exactly it rational...it's just not rational for me it's all or nothing. And I really can't suspend my disbelief to stomach 'All'.

As I said before, I don't know what "respecting other people's beliefs" means. It seems to me that it usually means that I am expected to modify my behaviour to accommodate people of faith and very rarely the other way round.

Good to see that this is still going! Poor old OP, I wonder if she expected it to be this long? :)

Doris, I know what you mean about cherry picking the bits of the bible you like. There's even an ancient Hebrew phrase that means 'string of pearls', which basically says that the bible verses that are dearest to you are like a pearl necklace, so this cherrry picking has been going on for quite some time! :)

I think that it's my duty to deal with all the Bible, even the bits that repulse me. A feminist theologian has written a very good book called 'Texts of Terror' saying much the same thing.

Snorbs, the ethics of the OT are pretty hard to grapple with. I'm certainly no biblical literalist and my take on, for example the Exodus is that it is told as a Passover celebration, with goodies and baddies like a Western movie, so talking about the ethics of it is akin to talking about the ethics of cowboy movies in the sense that the Exodus is a highly conventionalised narrative (which I do believe there to be a historical core to).

My

"It's not an insult to say that belief in religion is irrational though, is it? Surely that's the whole point of faith - believing in something which can't be proved or rationalised?"

Yes. 'You've got to have faith' is irrational. ""Is it because you have seen me that you have believed? How blessed are those who have never seen me and yet have believed!" - how do you rationalise that one (without 'you've got to have faith')

A person can be rational in all other aspects of their lives but faith is inherently irrational. I find it extremely weird that its seen as a Good Thing to have faith - any faith. There is also a case to be made that willingness to ignore evidence in the realm of religion can (not saying always!) lead to a tendency to be cavalier with the truth in other areas (there have been studies showing religious people to be less honest, I've heard)

OK, but we're now left with the ethics of the OT being troublesome possibly due to the stories being editorialised over the centuries, and the ethics of the NT being troublesome because they're "mind-bogglingly deep".

Earlier on in this thread someone asked how atheists find something to give meaning to their lives. Some of us gave a variety of answers. But I don't think anybody who professed a faith answered the same question.

How can you take the dubious morality, the mind-bogglingly deep contradictions and torturous complexity, the the repulsive bits and the questions, the practical necessity to cherry-pick your way through the Bible, how can you wrap all that up and use that as a basis for giving meaning to your life? What meaning does it give that would otherwise be lacking?

Well Snorbs, I might as well be honest and say that finding a way through the maze that is the Bible led me to do a degree in Theology, and I'm still a postgrad theology student so when I say I've wrestled with the questions, that's what I mean! :) I work on the New Testsment academically, but I've done lots of work on the OT and the early church, and on contemporary theology. This is in a normal university, not a faith based one, although I'm also v deeply involved in the church.

What meaning does it give to me? I'd say the church, especially taking communion, is the point at which all my love for God, my hunger to know God more, my questions and my fragility are all offered up in faith and hope and love. I honestly find it a transforming, renewing experience that tells me that I am loved and known and held by God. Prayer is the same kind of thing. Although I'm C of E, I'm v influenced by St Ignatius of Loyola and Jesuit spirituality, which is about 'finding God in all things', and part of what I do is the Ignatian Examen when you look back over your life and think about God's presence with you, and cultivate thankfulness. I really can't imagine myself without that in my life. I know that atheists can also cultivate thankfulness, but for me it's very rooted in faith. Does that answer your question? :)

Morning all. :)

Personally, I'm a "Red Letter" Christian. We concern ourselves with the actual words of Jesus, not anyone else's dogma. So helping the poor and the sick, and being forgiving and merciful.

Cheerful - so do you take Paul with a pinch of salt? A lot of mainstream Christianity seems to have been invented by him rather than Jesus.

Not everything Jesus said was about 'helping the poor and the sick, and being forgiving and merciful.' though - there are one or two passages which seem to need a considerable degree of interpretation to swallow.

Yes, I do, and yes, I know. :)

The basic beliefs are to focus on peace and social justice issues such as the elimination of poverty.

The basic beliefs are to focus on peace and social justice issues such as the elimination of poverty.

That sounds more like politics than anything that needs religion attached.

Well, sure. There are a lot of people doing this work who no faith in anything other than their own ability to help other people. Nothing wrong with that IMO. :)

The official stance is that Christianity is being hijacked and exploited by both sides of the political spectrum to serve their needs. I think. I haven't had all my coffee yet

I don't because I am an educated person and know that christianity is a foreign religion imposed on us at the end of a sword, and by legislation and later, by various dodgy treaties struck between priests and kings. Also as a former student of dead languages I know the perils of translation from dead to living language mean - if you can't read the original, you have no clue what the text says. So any religion based on a text written in several dead, foreign languages, can have no validity if the god is rigid, inflexible, has a 'word' and insists that people follow it.

In other words - god is clearly a manmade construct, from a historical/anthropological/forensic linguistic viewpoint. Gods change as one culture conquors another. Gods - or rather humans' belief in them - causes wars, death and destruction. Churches tell people to love one another etc etc and care about the poor - then have whacking huge bits of real estate worth a fortune, not a penny of which the poor will ever see, etc etc.

Also, I was brought up by a neglectful, abusive step parent who happened to be a churchgoing christian, and later the only abusive, plain nasty partner I ever had is also now a devout christian (guilt?) I go by reality and the evidence of my eyes and life experience. That is what reality and evidence showed me.

Nineflowers, so sorry to hear about the trauma you've been through :(

I do biblical translation from the 'dead' languages as part of my work so I can talk about the trustworthiness of various English translations. The NRSV is probably the most accurate, although as the saying goes 'every translation is an interpretation' and there are some verses that are much debated as to the best translation. Which languages did you study? :)

Also in defence of the church, churches do huge amounts of good, in all sorts of ways. There are many really wondrful, humble, generous Christians who give so much - sorry that the ones who had such an impact on you weren't :(

"....when you look back over your life and think about God's presence with you, and cultivate thankfulness."

I wonder what the starving in the Sudan are thankful for when they look back over their lives?

"Also in defence of the church, churches do huge amounts of good, in all sorts of ways. There are many really wondrful, humble, generous Christians who give so much - sorry that the ones who had such an impact on you weren't "

Churches are registered charities, that's how they get their tax exemption, they should do huge amounts of good. Please be fair and remember the secular charities who also do huge amounts of good. And also let's be fair and remember that they do huge amounts of bad too.

There are also many really wonderful, humble, generous atheists who give so much too. And there are some christians who are complete c**ts.

Just trying to be balanced.

Churches are registered charities, that's how they get their tax exemption, they should do huge amounts of good.

My DH was curious about this. He looked at the accounts of a local Buddhist organisation and a church.

The Buddhists only claimed tax exemption on truly charitable activities - those of benefit to other people, not on the upkeep of their buildings, staff etc.

The church claimed exemption on the whole lot - about 20% of their turnover was (by the Buddhists' criteria) charitable.

(Buddhists are atheists, y'know )

I like Buddhists, I like them so much I capitalise their title

Quakers too, they're quite inoffensive as far as I've researched. I've posted this before but I love it:

In the literal sense of the word, I suppose. In that they do not believe in a god. But with rebirth and all they aren't what I'd call an atheist, who believes that that death is the end.

Ah, never mind. They don't believe in a god, they're atheists. :)

I know what you were getting at Cheerful