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Philosophy/religion

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Offended the pastor

60 replies

GodKeepsGiving · 22/11/2011 23:35

What a difficult day. DH's birthday - I've been up since 3 am with baby. Am tired, hormonal and cheesed off. Pg with dc7. Four of our six children are autistic and at church on Sunday the most highly strung of them dropped his cake and was incredibly distressed. Group of people stood nearby laughed at him very heartily. DS shouted at them that it was funny, the ringleader said
'Oh yes it is!'

Everyone laughed even more and DS was distraught. He is really anxious and dislikes not being able to control situations. He's only 5 and as I said, very highly strung. We've been to other churches before and dc's SN issues have led to us being excluded. Our church is usually great, but I was utterly furious with this woman who has made snide remarks before. It's not common knowledge what our children's issues are, but it's obvious that something is different about them.

We emailed our pastor and his wife about it and they came to visit tonight. I was really annoyed that he brought his Bible with him and started reading passages about sin and forgiveness. I was cross because that part can wait, my son's needs come first. He didn't seem able to understand that it was irritating to sit and listen to a collection of verses about how St Paul says we are all sinners and how we need to forgive others in the same way that God has forgiven us.

Fine. But not at this point. I told him that what she had done was horrible and in effect constituted a hate crime and that I planned to make her aware of this. He was worried about this creating unpleasantness and being inflammatory. That's when I got really annoyed. I told him that I thought that was completely unfair, since it meant that her needs came before my son's (in that she wasn't offended by being told what her behaviour amounted to).

My attitude and response was that this is basically tough. She has the life experience and maturity to deal with this, my little son who was upset all day Sunday does not. We clashed quite badly and my asthma started to play up and so I called and end to the conversation. I think I've offended him, but surely if God sent me my son then it's my duty to protect him rather than be guided by passages on forgiveness. I also think I caused offence when I said that many other passages in the Bible could be applied to this situation, not just those which induce a level of passivity and which pacify people who are justifiably angry.

Also offended my DH as he didn't say much in support of my arguments. I love going to Church. I just love my children more. I know they can seem hard work, but they are largely misunderstood. If you've got to the end of this then I salute you. Just had to write it down.

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jasper · 22/11/2011 23:52

was the pastor's reading about sin and forgiveness his way of acknowledging he realised the woman had acted wrongly/unkindly?
Why not indeed forgive snide woman, then take her aside at church and explain that her comments are making your son feel/act worse so would she please stop?

You are right, your duty is to protect your son and that's why I think you need to speak to the woman in question.
good luck

GodKeepsGiving · 22/11/2011 23:53

Someone please answer.....

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eaglewings · 22/11/2011 23:56

Horrid situation on Sunday and tonight. Not got the right words to type tonight but will be back tomorrow. DS has ASD so have some understanding.

Pray for the lady tonight, God will help you

GodKeepsGiving · 22/11/2011 23:57

Thanks Jasper. Possibly you are right about his motives with the Bible passages, but his timing was so crass I was very annoyed.
I will forgive her in time, but not before I have dealt with it and defended my son. Hopefully, this process will start sooner rather than later but he got me so cross going on about sin and forgiveness at this point.
Another friend from Church is going to have a chat to her tomorrow so hopefully that will help.
Well done for reading it all x

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nokissymum · 22/11/2011 23:57

Godkeepsgiving didnt want to not reply to your heartfelt posting, i totally agree with you in everything you've said. Sounds like your pastor does not want to deal with any "unpleasantness" in the church so instead was hoping to intimidate you, the vunerable party into submission, whilst bashing you over the head with his bible.
Also sounds like you stood your ground! Good for you OP.

lisaro · 22/11/2011 23:58

Hmmmm...............

GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:00

Thanks nokissymum. That's almost exactly what I said to my husband - who incidentally was of limited use. I think I embarrassed him. Our Church tends to value submissive wives. It just isn't who I am, particularly not when it comes to dcs.

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GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:01

Hi Lisaro. What does that mean?

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lisaro · 23/11/2011 00:02

It means I'm considering my opinion.

GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:03

Okay.

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jasper · 23/11/2011 00:03

I have found several very lovely pastors to be not very good on a one to one basis, I'm afraid!

jasper · 23/11/2011 00:03

she's thinking!

GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:06

Thanks. I'm terrified of being accussed of trolling and I've seen 'hmm.....' precede such accusations before. Looks like I've got a little night time paranoia going on too.
Sorry lisaro

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GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:08

Hi Jasper,
I think you are right. I think as nokissymum said, he wazs hoping to smooth things over with a few words from St Paul, while at this point I'm still in the temple with Jesus overturning the market stalls. I don't think it's fair to try to force such issues at this point.

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SolidGoldVampireBat · 23/11/2011 00:10

My advice, which you may not want, would be ditch the church. I wasn't going to post, but when I read that your church 'values submissive wives' I thought, well, someone should tell you that this is a harmful crock of shit and won't do you or your DC any favours. This organisation is clearly not doing much good for your poor DS either, if he is expected to suck up being teased by adults.

Though I think religion in general does far more harm than good, you might at least like to consider that there are (or appear to be ) nicer churches out there. Ones that don't consider women subhuman, and have an inclusive and tolerant approach to anyone who's a bit different.

GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:12

Thanks SolidGoldVampireBat. Most of the congregation are kind, helpful and caring and have accepted the dcs really well. But I take your point and I am considering it.

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spendthrift · 23/11/2011 00:22

You're completely right to protect your son - and I admire your honesty and courage, especially at the moment.

Before I had friends with children on the spectrum I honestly didn't understand much about it. This was brought home to me when we held a party and a friend brought his AS son who went round being "helpful" in the kitchen - which we understood. But a close friend of mine, childless and with no experience of the condition, could only see him as incredibly naughty. I had to explain and even then she found it hard to take in. So if the other member of the congregation doesn't know much either about your family or the condition, she may not fully realise the consequences of her actions.

That said, it was a hurtful thing to do and especially then not to stop - and would be for any child, AS or not. And we are told not to hurt these little ones, so how much more so for those children whose paths are harder than most.

I do hope that you can get some rest - v difficult with your circumstances - and that the new baby to come brings you much joy, as I am sure the others do too.

TotallyUnheardOf · 23/11/2011 00:24

GKG... I'm sorry that you and your ds have been so upset by this incident. I don't have words of wisdom for you, I'm afraid, but this section is often quite quiet at night-time, so I wanted to leave you a reply anyway.

First of all, the behaviour of this person sounds really horrible. Regardless of SN, it's never 'OK' to laugh at a child who is visibly upset, surely? Sad I hope that she was able to reflect on her behaviour afterwards and realise that. (I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as a 'crime', but it was certainly hurtful - at best, unthinkingly so; at worst, deliberately nasty.)

Secondly, you are clearly disappointed by the reaction of your pastor. Would it help if you asked yourself what you were hoping to get out of the meeting? What would you have liked him to have done or said? How could he have made things better for you? Once you have clear what you'd have liked him to have done (within the scope of what's appropriate for his role, of course), I think you could try to talk to him about what happened as constructively as possible (e.g. 'When you said xyz, it made me feel as if you were downplaying the hurt done to ds. It would have been useful if you had helped me to come to terms with the pain that he felt on Sunday, before moving on to forgiving the person who said those things.').

Having said that, I agree with Jasper that by talking about sin and forgiveness he is acknowledging the wrong in what this woman did, but is asking you to 'love those who do you harm' and forgive her. I don't think that that's an unreasonable response from someone in his position (nor even an unexpected one), but I do think that perhaps he launched straight into the reading before you were ready for it and could perhaps have done with talking around it a bit more with you first. FWIW, I don't read the message of forgiveness as being at all about passivity: it's not about simply accepting the wrongs done to you, but about accepting that 'to err is human' - that we all make mistakes - but that Christ's example teaches us that love is stronger than sin, stronger than pain, and stronger than anger. And it seems to me that the effort needed to turn your hurt and anger into love is absolutely active rather than passive... which doesn't mean that it's easy, of course.

Do you think that you'd be able to do what Jasper suggests and talk to this person yourself? If not, could you ask the pastor to mediate for you - to tell her that her comments hurt you very deeply and to ask her to think more carefully about her reactions in future? Do you think he'd be prepared to do that?

I don't know if those ramblings make any sense, but I didn't want to ignore your post, and I do want to say how sorry I am that your ds wasn't treated with the love and respect that he deserves.

GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:26

Thanks spendthrift. I don't think she does know the extent of the damage she's caused, but I feel she should know. What annoyed me more than anything was the pastor's great offence at the term 'hate crime'. That's exactly what it is and I felt he was prioritising her need to not be made ware of what her actions actually constituted over ds's distress.....
I think I do need some sleep soon. And I can't wait to meet my new baby Smile

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TotallyUnheardOf · 23/11/2011 00:27

OK... crossposted with about a million others, sorry. Started writing that essay after your second post! Slow typist! Blush

lisad123 · 23/11/2011 00:32

I'm so sorry for your little boy, how is he now?
We have been very lucky with our congregation, they are very understanding of my girls who are both autistic along with another young man.
This woman clearly wasn't acting loving towards your little boy Sad
I can understand your upset and why the words from the pastor didn't go down well.

We always have a check list if someone has wrong us ( me and dh personally)

Can I wash over it with love?
Can I talk to the person involved and sort this out between us?
Do I feel unable to deal with this alone and need to talk to elder?

Someone else getting involved is always the last choice for us.
I love the support we have via our friends and really don't know how we would have got though the last few years without them and a string faith that things will improve.

GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:35

TotallyUnheardOf, thank you for your lovely words. I just feel that he was more focussed on keeping things calm in the congregation. I actually felt that in this situation, at this particular point, the passages were irrelevant and a tad insulting because the point of the meeting was to discuss supporting ds. I feel that my forgiveness of her was a completely different issue, but that he tried to take advantage of the extreme distress it had caused by immediately pointing out examples of his own need to forgive others etc.
Love is definitely stronger than sin and in this instance my love for my son has to be my priority. Frankly, she can wait. I don't hate her and am trying not to be bitter, but I will not have him sweep mine and my son's feelings under the carpet with his Bible!
I will forgive her in time. But that will be impossible until I have made things right for DS.
Thank you again for your lovely words.

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jasper · 23/11/2011 00:35

I do understand why the pastor might think the term "hate crime" was inappropriate.

Can you explain why you feel so strongly that you want to describe it as such?

Can you tell us more about what she actually said or did?

spendthrift · 23/11/2011 00:38

GKG, I agree - and I would have wanted your pastor to go and explain to her what she'd done as the outcome - but with the thought that it was possibly unintentional (though I still think it's not acceptable to laugh at small children unkindly ). If he's too scared to do that, then I think there's a problem with the leadership.

Sleep well.

GodKeepsGiving · 23/11/2011 00:38

Hi lisad123. He is a bit better, but he's had a couple of really bad days at school. I can't wash over this without diluting the needs of my son. I'm too hormonal right now to chat to her in person. The pastor was less than helpful.
Faith. It's the only thing that keeps me going.
Goodnight x

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