Offended the pastor

[GodKeepsGiving]

What a difficult day. DH's birthday - I've been up since 3 am with baby. Am tired, hormonal and cheesed off. Pg with dc7. Four of our six children are autistic and at church on Sunday the most highly strung of them dropped his cake and was incredibly distressed. Group of people stood nearby laughed at him very heartily. DS shouted at them that it was funny, the ringleader said
'Oh yes it is!'

Everyone laughed even more and DS was distraught. He is really anxious and dislikes not being able to control situations. He's only 5 and as I said, very highly strung. We've been to other churches before and dc's SN issues have led to us being excluded. Our church is usually great, but I was utterly furious with this woman who has made snide remarks before. It's not common knowledge what our children's issues are, but it's obvious that something is different about them.

We emailed our pastor and his wife about it and they came to visit tonight. I was really annoyed that he brought his Bible with him and started reading passages about sin and forgiveness. I was cross because that part can wait, my son's needs come first. He didn't seem able to understand that it was irritating to sit and listen to a collection of verses about how St Paul says we are all sinners and how we need to forgive others in the same way that God has forgiven us.

Fine. But not at this point. I told him that what she had done was horrible and in effect constituted a hate crime and that I planned to make her aware of this. He was worried about this creating unpleasantness and being inflammatory. That's when I got really annoyed. I told him that I thought that was completely unfair, since it meant that her needs came before my son's (in that she wasn't offended by being told what her behaviour amounted to).

My attitude and response was that this is basically tough. She has the life experience and maturity to deal with this, my little son who was upset all day Sunday does not. We clashed quite badly and my asthma started to play up and so I called and end to the conversation. I think I've offended him, but surely if God sent me my son then it's my duty to protect him rather than be guided by passages on forgiveness. I also think I caused offence when I said that many other passages in the Bible could be applied to this situation, not just those which induce a level of passivity and which pacify people who are justifiably angry.

Also offended my DH as he didn't say much in support of my arguments. I love going to Church. I just love my children more. I know they can seem hard work, but they are largely misunderstood. If you've got to the end of this then I salute you. Just had to write it down.

hope you get more sleep tonight

She mocks lots of people. It's a hate crime as he is obviously different and has regular meltdowns. She mocked him loudly in front of lots of others and even when he challenged her she carried on. He is obviously different and to jeer at a disabled child in that way does indeed constitute a hate crime. He just doesn't want to say it. His wife is a former social worker who agreed with me.

Could you maybe write her a letter? Explain the impact her treatment has had on your son.
Forgiveness is a hard thing to do, and sometimes it just takes time, it's not something that comes easy.
It's hard enough managing to get to a religious meeting without the struggle of kids and let alone SN kids.

Thanks so much everyone. I must go to bed. I really appreciate all your warm and caring replies.

Hi love

Not a fun situ for you. I do sympathise and love the fact that youre a protective mummy.

This is what I would do now youve seen the pastor, but this is just me:

1. give yourself some time to really really settle and feel calm, possibly missing church on sun if needs be

1. WHEN the time is right, ask to meet her for a brief coffee, after church even (let hubby have the kids?) and explain you AND your son felt hurt by the incident and that to you, it did not seem to be an isolated incident. You could ask if she has any issues with you and yours but be very together, hence the being calm when you go. You could explain some of the children have issues and you want them to grow up to love jesus and his church, so could she help you by encouraging them also. A bit of reverse psychology? ;) Keep it short.

And lastly, if she will not meet with you, the bible says to meet with the person WITH leadership present so ask your pastor to meet with you both.

I dont think youll be happy until this has been resolved and you dont want to risk a repeat performance.

Any pastor, worth his salt, will want this sorted for the sake of unity.

Be strong and come back and chat as you need to.

xxxx

oh and if she will not chat with you either alone or with leadership (and if they will not do their duty and come with you to chat with her), and youre still not comfy at this church then Im afraid it is time to move on.

We have just moved on, after 12 years in a church and oh what joy! Moving can be GOOD

Thanks graceinabundance. I may not go on Sunday, I will see how I feel. I have barely slept as my asthma has played up since the discussion and I have had to come back to bed this morning which just makes things harder for dh.

I am happy to meet with her when I'm calmer, but my issue with this is that she could quite easily pretend to be mortified but still be sniggering about it in private.

I think that the pastor's desire for unity is driving him to inappropriately push the topic of forgiveness. I'm not saying that it will never happen or that I don't want it too, just that it's a process which I'm not ready to begin yet. Moreover, I feel it would be wrong to.

I would hate to have to vote with my feet, but if it comes to it we may have to do so. I just don't know where we would go and I feel that it would be my reputation that would be tarnished.

I really think that he thought that once he got the Bible out everything would be soothed, whereas it had the effect of seeming to try to soothe tempestuous waters when there was a shipwreck, before looking for survivors (probably not the clearest analogy - I didn't sleep until 3am).

Thanks for your support

I agree with Jasper.

Is this the first time this has happened?

I think you need to step back - you do not need to continually "defend" your son when there is no incident going on. You will never find peace if you are going to ascribe motivations to other people - if she shows mortification and does not do it again, but you writethis off as a pretence, it is you who will be unable to find peace.

The doctrine of forgiveness is not about being submissive or a doormat. It is a way of letting go of the past and that is very healthy. Holding grudges harms the holder (and I understand this is recognised in psych now).

What do you want your and your DCs relationship with this church to look like?

Then the question is, how to get there?

Hi Edith,
Thanks for replying, I know it's a quite long.

She has been unpleasant before, yes. I would rather be in a position where I can't find peace than risk allowing any further injury to his feelings. Rationally, I think it's important to question the verity of an individual's response - she is known for being snide and rude. I think scepticism is a useful tool here.

I want things to improve with our church. I would prefer to pray for her at some point and have her keep her distance in the immediate future and then hopefully get to a point of forgiveness.

I think time is important in helping ds and I to heal and come to a point of letting go. But it's a process and for the pastor to expect that without any show of remorse or without her even being challenged is asking too much at this point.

This happened at your church?! Somewhere one should expect love and support? If nothing else, can you not explain to your pastor and this woman precisely how at odds their attitudes are with Christian teaching?

My attitude to religion in general is poles apart from yours but this is outrageous.

Thanks BelleDameSansMerci. It is outrageous isn't it? And I was so tired last night that my response couldn't have been as objective as it should be, but then again, perhaps the timing is no bad thing. I would hate to think that I would be bullied into a state of passivity over such a significant issue and I do think that there was some intention to do so.

Why not just take her to one side and have a word with her and explain the situation.
'Hate crime' seems a bit ott.
What was it that you were expecting of the pastor? For him to have a word with her or to give you advice on how to approach her or both? He may have been trying to calm you down and then intending to speak to her anyway. I can't see any harm in trying to diffuse a situation.

At this point, I think I would speak (civilly) to her myself especially if you suspect that she doesn't realise how hurtful she is being.

I would not go back to that church personally, sounds atrocious.

This group of people who stood around laughing at your dc, were they adults or dc? If they were mostly dc, I might speak to someone at your church who deals with youth ministry. It might be something worth bringing up in some manner in a group youth setting. If adults, well it is just very depressing, isn't it?

If you want to continue going there, you will have to deal directly with this woman when and if you feel able to do so, I think before you go back.

sorry back again. Just saw the title of the thread is "offended the pastor". If that is the main concern, surely he must forgive and forget according to the passages he quoted in exactly the same manner as he expected it from you? That shouldn't be a huge concern

Thanks ZZZenAgain. It wasn't children, it was adults. My main concern isn't really offending the pastor, it's more that as you say, the entire situation is depressing. I suppose I felt embarrassed but feel that my anger was entirely justified.

I have spoken to someone today who will speak with her tonight and I may discuss it with her myself on Sunday. I may even continue to go but leave immediately after the service to minimise any interaction with her. The pastor and his wife have promised to make a specific area for the children to play after the service so that's a further option.

I just don't think the pastor was very pleased when I said that I thought many other passages in the Bible were applicable rather than just those about forgiveness. I still feel this way.

Thanks again for reading it - I know it's a long post.

You should try a different church. I was made to feel unwelcome in my old church due to ds1's behaviour when he was about 3 I cried all the way home and stopped going after that. It's taken me years to finally get the courage to find somewhere else.

Hiddenhome that's really sad. We had the same experience 3 times and we've only been at this church for 2 months. Sadly, we might have to go elsewhere. The problem is, most people are genuinely lovely. Although everyone has taken our side, it all feels rather tainted now.
I do hope we can sort it out.

Any incident or crime, which is perceived to be motivated because of a person's disability or percieved disability, by the victim or any other person, will be classed as "Disability Hate". This can be committed against a person or property.

This would include anyone who is targeted as a result of their physical disability, sensory impairment, learning disability or mental health.

Found this definition of hate crime at www.disabilityhatecrime.org.uk/

DS obviously has issues and regular meltdowns at church. I just wanted it to be clear that I wasn't exaggerating.

If you take religion out of it, you have a situation where an adult is laughing at a young child with special needs.

No one should be doing or saying anything apart from remonstrating with that nasty woman.

Thanks Hullygully. You have said it much more succinctly than I am able to at present

You're very welcome. Unfortunately you seem to get as many nasty people in churches as in the rest of the world. And people that are inadequate at dealing with them.

You make a good point. Great deal of kindness, potentially not enough gravitas to deal with the situation.

GKG I can hear your pain and your anger! I hope you asthma has receeded a little and you have been able to put a little mental space between you and this woman / incident.

How does you son feel? How would he cope with being confronted by this woman and receiving an apology in whatever form it came?

If you have any time, though with 6 children, I can't see how!! I would get hold of and read Non violent communication - it has excellent strategies for formulating discussions in difficult situations!

Could you explain to this woman that your son really struggled with being laughed at and that he is struggling to see why it would be inappropriate for a child to do it without being asked to apologise and that it is causing such an issue in your family that you are struggling to see how you will all be able to continue to come to church until the issue is resolved?

Could you also ask you pastor or another church leader to pray publicly for understanding and empathy towards those with disabilities, particularly those that are easily overlooked and little understood? If it was all pretty public, it will be obvious who has asked for the prayer and may make other adults think twice the next time.

Remember that Jesus is by YOUR side in all of this and hopefully your pastor will reflect and pray on this too and see the impact it is having on you and your family.

MistyB that is a beautiful post. Thank you.
My son is still upset. I think he would feel it was his duty to forgive her. Your suggestion of reading Non violent communication is very useful, but made me smile. It's a good thing I don't have violence issues because in this instance they might well come to the fore!

My friend who visited today is going to do much as you suggested, she leads the Bible study class taking place this evening, which the woman concerned goes to.
Thanks again

I'm sorry you had such a difficult time at church.

Personally, I wouldn't say anything to her but would give her a chance to apologise. She may well be mortified when she is told that she was laughing at a child with special needs. You do say that it isn't common knowledge that some of your kids are autistic and so she probably didn't know. Also, although it may be obvious to you that there is something different about your DS it may not be obvious to her, particularly if she doesn't have kids or if they are now grown up. If she doesn't apologise within the next couple of weeks then I'd probably have a quiet word with her and explain that your son thought she was laughing at him and was very upset about it. I wouldn't mention disability hate - I think that would just inflame the situation.

In the longer term you may have to decide if you want to stay in that church. You do say that most people are lovely. Unfortunately, as churches are made up of human beings and as we are all flawed there will always be a mix of people you like and a few people that you may find more challenging in any church. After all, we are all works in progress. I had people "tut tutting" at my DS2's behaviour some time ago. Although I was upset I chose to just ignore them. A couple of years down the line and I think most folk have just got used to my rather rowdy son. I'm sure most people would much rather have you there with the kids than that the actions of one person meant you felt forced to leave. You've also mentioned a couple of times though that there are also other issues in the church and that it expects women to be submissive. Only you can decide if this is something you are willing to accept or not. As SolidGoldBrass has said, not all churches are like that.