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Philosophy/religion

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Religion Chat thread number 1

1002 replies

nickelbabyjesus · 31/12/2010 15:29

I wanted to put some random thoughts and stuff regarding church, without it having to be a debate or a specific topic (and not prayers, either)

It's basically, a "what happened at church (or in my musical/spiritual life) this week" thread. Grin
Please join me!

I'll start:

We had Midnight Mass (on Christmas Eve, would you believe!), and it was half past 11, everyone was sitting and ready for the service to start - I waved the organist to give me my notes: he was just about to plat them when:
" TAXI FOR suchandsuch " came blaring out of our speaker system. Angry
There's a Wetherspoon's over the road and looks like the DJ's mike was on the same frequency as our radio mikes.
So, all the congregation started giggling and we had to wait 5 minutes until everyone was calm and collected enough to carry on.

OP posts:
BaroqueAroundTheClock · 19/01/2011 09:26

no - you don't need to keep the joiny-in bits as one "style" (especially if you look at your traditional hymns that you use and you'll probably see that they range from mid 20th century right back to 1700's (or earlier Grin).

Some of the "regulars" may suprise you. One of our staunchest traditionalists's (who argued "for" keeping our Evengsong service despite it being even"said" and only having about 6 people turn up to it) favourite hymn is "Be Still for the Presence of the Lord"

And yes I did tease him about that (despite him being twice my age) after he'd been complaining Loudly for weeks about all the new hymns/songs we'd learnt and then we had a praise service one evening where people could choose their favourite hymn and he chose "Be Still" Grin

You could try some of the modern hymns that have been written to ease them in if you're really worried (In Christ Alone was instantly popular when we introduced that because of it's traditional hymn like format), and alsoones like Here is Love.

I also years ago compiled a list of popular (within the church) "modern" (post 1950's) hymns and songs that we already used in church and were included in our (hideous) Orange hymnbook. Sadly I've since lost it, but there were some looks of shock on faces of some when they realised just how "modern" some of their favourite "traditional" hymns were (Will you come and follow me was only written in 1987 for example).

And some of the "modern" ones which they disliked were written not long after the war Grin

Stuart Townend is quite a good one to start off with. Very modern, but lots of his stuff in traditional format. Plus there are quite a few modern hymns around set to old tunes that they'll know well.

In principle many "traditionalist" are opposed to intrducing new stuff - but in practice few complain once it's intoduced and often embrace it better than some of the ones that like to think of themselves as more uptodate and contemporary.

One thing I would say is to choose your songs carefully, once they're used to singing some of the more contemporary choruses and songs learning new ones is easier, but initially (and especially if you're musician(s) are not used to it) some of them can be hard to grasps the rhythms (though in reality some are no harder than some of the older ones like A Great and Mighty Wonder - that always throws people in our church).

I second having instructions on where to stand/sit/kneel (if they want) in the service sheet. Some people will never have been in church before and if they have clear instructions in front of them then it makes it easier for them.

Digital media can be great, BUT make sure it's someone that knows what they're doing that sets it up. Digital media used badly/presented badly can be a real turn off.

Think of it like watching TV, if you watch a poor edited, badly narrated, badly shot documentary on TV you're not going to rave about it much, or probably not remember much of it. A well edited, well narrated, well shot one will leave a much better impression.

I think this is where many churches fail when introducing digital media into their services - you don't want to listen to someone stumbling their way through the reading, see the Vicar faffing around during the service, the people doing the collection dithering about what to do - it leaves and impression in your mind that isn't what you're supposed to have on your mind when you leave the church iykwim.

I suppose it's also a bit like a business meeting if you're using powerpoint (though to be honest if your church is going to be using the screen frequently it's probably easier to buy one of the many pieces of software that's available - makes life much easier and generally takes less time to prepare). A badly put together PP presentation isn't going to give a good impression.

thanksamillion · 19/01/2011 09:36

Hi all.

Great video Baroque very well done. And hope that you get some clarity about what to do next. I find that the answers often come when I start to try things and it becomes clear either that God is in it or that it really isn't a goer. But maybe I'm just not 'spiritual' enough to just listen and get an answer Grin

Re introducing new styles of worship, a couple of thoughts. Firstly I would strongly recommend sticking to using the piano because a lot of these songs are just not written to play on the organ and it kind of gives people extra ammunition if they don't want to like them. Unless of course you've got some kind of genuis organist who can make their own kind of arrangements...

Having new songs being sung before the service is a good idea as the congregation gets familiar with the melody, as would using one in the service as a kind of meditation (maybe with words/images on a screen).

The other thing is to be careful with the song choice and maybe start with modern ones which are in a more familiar form (verse chorus, verse, chorus etc) rather than the ever increasingly complicated verse chorus, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus, coda, chorus etc etc Grin

thanksamillion · 19/01/2011 09:40

Cross posted with Baroque there on the style of songs!

Totally agree about using digital media badly - ideally you shouldn't even notice that it's there (iyswim) in the same what that you wouldn't be thinking about the service sheet, just taking in what's written.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 19/01/2011 09:48

Thankyou thanksamillion, I've tried already started looking into several options and am still not getting any clarity (that's why I've got several "doors ajar" haha).

Yes yes yes on the organ/piano thing. Some of them can be played on the organ without rearrangement.......but the organist needs to know what they're doing.

I play quite a few of them on the organ - but in some services can be seen dashing between the organ and the piano (piano is back to back with the organ console Grin).

apricottree · 19/01/2011 10:30

Hi, I hope you don?t mind me joining in.

I?ve been following this thread with interest. I?ve moved around quite a lot and found about half of the parishes I?ve lived in (I?m catholic) have felt open and welcoming and have flourished, and about half have felt closed and defensive, with falling congregations.

However, it hasn?t really been the music, or style of worship, that defines which is which, both the flourishing parishes, and the defensive parishes have included parishes with traditional sung responses in Latin, and parishes with modern folk-Mass type music. Both the flourishing and defensive groups have included small and large parishes. Some of the most effective churches I have known have had tiny congregations in rural areas.

So I wonder if it is something more fundemental that defines whether a church flourishes or not ? perhaps whether there is a sense of a Christian community that persists outside of the hour spent at Mass on a Sunday? or a community with a sense of ownership of the parish?

I personally prefer modern music and a church with high proportion of younger families, but am quite happy in a more traditional parish with only a few younger families if the overall feel of the parish is positive.

madhairday · 19/01/2011 11:16

Wow thanyou so much TUO, Baroque and thanksamillion, some really good thoughts there, writing them down for my working group to discuss.

Just wanted to ask one more thing here. One thing I'm pondering on is the sung settings of the Gloria, eucharist bits etc that we use. They've been the same for years and not the most compelling of tunes. Does anyone know of any newer (or even older, doesn't matter) settings that they could link me to - I suppose I'm just wondering about variety, within reason of course. I don't want to take away the familiarity, just shake it up a bit and perhaps alternate?

madhairday · 19/01/2011 11:19

Hi apricottree :) Good thoughts about community - I think you're right.

Really should be doing my church newsletter

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 19/01/2011 11:57

Which setting of the Gloria etc do you use? I can't remember Blush which one ours is but it's fairly modern (but traditional style) and although I'm getting a bit bored of it now it's quite good.

I'll have a look when I'm over at church as to which one it is.

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 12:03

Baroque - your video is amazing.
I'm in tears, you wench.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 19/01/2011 12:06

thanks Nickel Blush

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 12:17

I love TUO's suggestion to talk to the people in the congregation about why the change is neccessary - The fact that you'd be "discussing" it, or "running it by" them first, is a great step! It's less likely to be metwith opposition, because they'll feel like part of the team.
And tell them that you want their opinions.
something like "we want to try this new format for 6 months, because we really need new people coming to the church - please bear with us during these six months because we might find some things don't work and we want to fiddle with it - please let us know what you like and don't like about the new format, and the new sheets, and if you've got any good ideas (or ideas, they don't have to be good ), please approach me, or anyone else in the leadership team "

My MAIN hint and tip is please get at least 2 people to check your overhead projections (powerpoint things) before you use them I have lost count of the number of times I've been very annoyed indeed by the presentation having incorrect words and bad grammar in (someone typing it in or copy+pasting from somewhere else without checking it)
and save each hymn as a separate document, so you can use them in a new presentation time and time again.

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 12:19

thanksamillion - don't agree with the piano instead of organ comment, sorry.
If the organist has got time to learn the piece, it will Wink sound as good, if not better on the organ.
Tehy don't need to faff around with it, they just need to learn it.
(which means more than a couple of days notice for organists who have proper jobs too)

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 12:22

hello to all the newbies, by the way!

no probs, Baroque - you're fast becoming a hero of mine Blush Wink

madhairday tell us your settings!

we've got a couple of dreadful settings in the rota [bleurgh]
but my favourite is The Mass of St Thomas by David Thorne - you can get it in a 4part choir+organ, or as a congregation/sopranos+organ/piano (and in the congregation version, you don't need to use the descant/soprano part, but if you have a music group, it would work really well)

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 19/01/2011 12:39

no Nickel - sorry I disagree - some of the modern choruses do NOT work on the organ. Doesn't matter how well the notes are played they sound totally and utterly shit

thanksamillion · 19/01/2011 12:42

Really like the idea nickel about 'consulting' with the congregation and giving a time limit. By the time you get to the end of the 6 months I bet that most people will have forgotten what they were objecting to in the first place (or at least got used enough to it not to mind).

Willing to be wrong on the organ thing - maybe I've never been somewhere with a good enough organist!

I do think that when there's change afoot a lot of grace goes out of the window - not everyone likes the same thing and we don't go to church to be entertained (although that could be a whole new discussion!) so I think that everyone (lovers of old and new styles alike) should be able to compromise for a few minutes each week Smile

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 12:43

well, you're not my hero anymore!

When I say modern stuff, I'm obviously talking about the more conservative ones - not the ones with silly complicated rhythms and sky-high guitars (and certainly not those with several million repeated refrains where everyone gets confused and thinks the song's goingto finish, but it really goes on for several more hours and ends up sounding nothing like the song that started, and some of the words are quite frankly odd, i'm talking to you mr kendrick [stern face] )

There are some, which would never enter into my church (not while grumpy pants is in charge of the music Wink ), that can't be played on an organ, but I think those can't be played on piano either - okay, the basic rhythm can, but the main tune (with fiddly bits) needs to be done on a guitar or similar.

Have i entered into the realms of far too pentecostal for my tender brain to cope with? Grin

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 12:46

I'll go with the ones in the first couple of books of Songs of Fellowhip being organ-playable and anything beyond that (SoF 3&4) being too aham to play on the organ.

is that about right?
Grin

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 12:50

anyway! Blush

we had our PCC meeting last night - amazingly, it went very smoothly.

We had a visit from the area dean, and it looks like our Bishop likes us, and he's really keen on getting a priest-y team in place by the summer holidays (unlikely, but we can dream, eh!)
They're thinking that the best thing for the town is to do a "team ministry" whereby there is a leader and a team of "team vicars", who share the area and the churches, but also share expertise and experience, thereby meaning that each church can maintain its own identity but still be part of a bigger thing.
I didn't quite get the finer details, but it means that they're not going to sell the church buildings and make a new building in the middle of town (yes, the previous bishop decided that would be the only way forward...Hmm )

it's good, but only if the team leader doesn't enforce his own ideas on all the churches (the one we think they've got in mind doesn't like traditional, so we'd be screwed if he didn't respect appreciate or let live traditional)

madhairday · 19/01/2011 12:54

heheh nickel getting the impression you're not greatly into some of the newer contemporary more complicated stuff. Kendrick's old hat now Grin I must say I do agree with Baroque on this one, I think some contemporary stuff really doesn't work on the organ, it's just not designed for it and sounds awful. Our organist is very good and even he thinks so. Yes SOF thing sounds about right!

Liking the idea of consulting with the congregation, and getting them to join in and feel part of it. I could ask for their suggestions too, not just present them with a fait accompli.

This is great, you're doing all my work for me!! Grin

Oh yes fully agree re. Powerpoints - nothing irks me more than bad grammar on it. I tend to do the techy stuff in my church (ok I do too much I know) so check meticulously and always get dh to check through as well. I so copy and paste but the number of song words on tinternet that are just wrong, let alone grammatically incorrect, has surprised me greatly so I always check as I go along now. One at Christmas was 'Hark The Herald Angel's Sing' Grin grrrrr!!

madhairday · 19/01/2011 12:56

For a post berating others for grammatical errors the above doesn't fall into a shining category of wonderful grammar itself Blush

TotallyUnheardOf · 19/01/2011 12:57

LOL @ nickel and Baroque having a musical scrap! Grin (Organ pipes at 20 paces!)

When I said 'keep the same style', I meant in a very broad sense, not that there should be a cut-off date of 'music written before 1900' or some such. But I think that MHD knows her congregations and what they do/don't like and might or might not be prepared to tolerate. It was more about setting up certain spaces in the service as the spaces where it was OK to try something new.

BTW Baroque... Not ignoring your video. I can't see it for some reason. Confused

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 19/01/2011 13:01

ahh well we'll have to agree to disagree then Nickel Grin

Not just the grammar on the powerpoints - but the way it's put together, we had someone come into our church a few years back to show a powerpoint about a Charity in Nepal- it was so dull and badly put together - they may as well just have held up enlarged photos to show what they were talking about iywkim.

Powerpoint and the likes have transition and effect options for a REASON.

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 13:01

i think you'll find that the music hasn't been designed for the organ not vice versa (if we're going to be picky!) Grin

TotallyUnheardOf · 19/01/2011 13:01

MHD, yes, definitely ask for suggestions. Even if you don't act on any of them, people will appreciate having been asked. I have had to (try to) implement some quite difficult changes at work and this process of consultation has been vital in ensuring that people [apologies in advance for hideous management-speak] take ownership of the process. Given that the Church is the people in it, all the more important for that ownership thing to happen (or at least for you to make it possible for it to happen... some will always resist, I know, but if you've taken them to the water it's not your fault if they won't drink). [And now I am mixing my metaphors too. Not a good post to follow yours about grammar!]

nickelbabysnatcher · 19/01/2011 13:03

we had a Christmas one last year where "The little Lord Jesus Lay down his sweet head"
not entirely sure how that would work in practice, but I think they meant that he " laid down his sweet head" (his head being the object that was placed upon the straw) Hmm
Grin

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