Religion Chat thread number 1

[nickelbabyjesus]

I wanted to put some random thoughts and stuff regarding church, without it having to be a debate or a specific topic (and not prayers, either)

It's basically, a "what happened at church (or in my musical/spiritual life) this week" thread.
Please join me!

I'll start:

We had Midnight Mass (on Christmas Eve, would you believe!), and it was half past 11, everyone was sitting and ready for the service to start - I waved the organist to give me my notes: he was just about to plat them when:
" TAXI FOR suchandsuch " came blaring out of our speaker system.
There's a Wetherspoon's over the road and looks like the DJ's mike was on the same frequency as our radio mikes.
So, all the congregation started giggling and we had to wait 5 minutes until everyone was calm and collected enough to carry on.

I have visited a few different churches of different denominations over the years. One thing I find difficult is if there are lots of spoken prayers where the congregation make set responses. If you are new and don't know what the spoken responses should be you can end up feeling pretty embarassed. One church I went to handed out prayer books and I'm sure the prayer would have been in it somewhere but didn't know where to find it. In another church the people were lovely but didn't hand out any prayer books etc. They just knew the prayers off by heart. It can be very offputting. If prayers with responses were printed in an order of service it would be much, much easier for newcomers.

Sometimes well meaning people can be just a bit too full on to newcomers too. On one occasion some years ago I had wandered into a church not sure if I believed in God when someone came bouncing up to me, noticed I was new and said "so, where on your faith journey are you?". I'm sure he meant well, but it felt very full on. I didn't even feel I was on a journey at that point, although looking back I think God was working on me!

Sorry to back track to a previous post, but I felt I had to respond to TUO comments about church not being relevant. A few years ago, I stopped going to church because I felt that the one I was attending at the time had become irrelevant. I felt that it was preaching a "cookbook" Christianity, as in "if you are a Christian, you tithe", "if you are a Christian, you go to church", "if you are a Christian, you do such and such...". It gave me very little if anything. So I stopped going.

For church to be relevant to me it has to help me make sense of my life and what I experience. I don't mean that in a major way. Just in the sense that I feel it helps me understand God and my relationship with him and the world around me. I'm now in the process of returning to church with my DS and am dividing our Sundays between two different ones as i can't seem to choose which one to commit to . Both are quite different from each other but good in their own way. I really like the vicar in one, while the other is very accepting and forgiving of my 3yo who can be a bit of a handful sometimes (plus they have better musicians ). I've even had my atheist/agnostic dh come along to see what he thinks. He prefers the second second church. He can get quite uptight in church especially if ds is playing up. He was surprised when one of the elders snuck up during one of the hymns and told him not to worry because he wasn't actually disturbing anybody much .

jaffacakeaddict,

That makes me really cross on your behalf. At our church, we project all the liturgy and songs onto a big screen. We also have printouts on of the actual service (not prayerbook) for those that want it. The only extra thing we have a bibles, to use during the sermon (the actual readings are projected too).

When we moved to the USA, we went to the Episcopal church, and had to juggle about four things - service sheet, bible, BCP and hymnary. It was not newbie friendly (it was not old-fogie friendly either). Add to that all the nodding, bowing and crossing. Aaargh!

If a church uses a prayerbook for the service, without bespoke sheets or big screen, they should really have a good welcome team to make sure that visitors know what to do (and also reassure them that they can't do anything wrong).

Cool thread!

I usually go to the catholic church attached to DC's school (or is it the other way around?) The only time I went to our local catholic church they didn't have any mass sheet thingy's, and I had no idea what was going on. It's really put me off going back.

Even DH sometimes struggles with the mass , as although he was bought up in a Catholic family didn't go to the catholic school, and so doesn't know the long prayers which aren't always on the mass sheet (I think they are prayers) off by heart.

We have mass sheets thank goodness and the vicar always refers to which sheet we're in and what we're doing which us great for a newbie like me. Shame that other churches just expect you to know what to do / say- very off-putting for new comers.

Not sure I totally enjoy the peace I have to say, find it a bit cringy and don't really get it. Mainly cos well meaning people wake up my happily sleeping baby! Anyone explain it to me in laymans terms please?

Yorkshire,

The Peace is actually quite an important part of the service. It is about readying yourself for communion. Just as the confession puts you right with God, the Peace puts you at right with one another. The Christian faith is about relationships - up towards God, and across to one another.

I know that when I have had little problems with someone in the church family, sharing the Peace has dissolved them away.

At my church, we only have communion once a month. We have confession in all services, but the Peace only in communion services. I would love to have the Peace in all services too.

Hi gingercurl. Yes, I understand what you are saying. I was lucky in the US, because I found that the church I went to spoke to me in very direct (sometimes freakily so!) ways. The jury is still out on the church I've been going to back here, but I'll give it a chance.

Merryscot... Yes, the Episcopal church I went to had BCP plus hymnal plus service sheet, but you could get by with just the last two really. I liked that they printed the music (sung Eucharist) and not just the words as a matter of course. That was useful. What I liked about the Episcopal church that I went to was that the people there embodied a real variety of styles (some who crossed themselves and genuflected, some who bowed slightly to the altar, some who did none of the above) and no-one seemed really to care, or even to notice, which camp anyone fell into. So that was nice.

My understanding of the Peace is that it comes from John 14, 27, where peace is Christ's bequest to his followers. So passing on the peace to others is continuing Christ's own actions when he bequeaths his peace to his disciples, and it is therefore more than just wishing peace on your neighbours (as in a wish that comes from you personally) but actually giving and receiving Christ's own peace. I think it is useful as a reminder that Christ is all around us, in the people we interact with on a daily basis (cf. the end of Matthew 25). Is that right? Does it make sense?

Thank you yes that does make sense. I didn't really know why we shared the peace and didn't want to ask as I felt a bit embarrassed to and didn't want people to think I was a stupid. On Sunday I can approach it in a new way so thank you for the explanations.

I've been going to church (it's high c of e) I don't fully understand all of the different aspects if it. I go to the sung Eucharist and I love it, it feels right. I was brought up in a non religious house so only ever gone to church for weddings so it's quite new to me.

gingercurl - that's fine, to go to 2 different churches - each church obviously serves your spiritual needs the same amount, or you would have decided that you preferred one over the other.
If you like both churches equally, then continue to go to both churches. You will make more friends, and will feel more at home that way.
a simple analogy would be to say that you don't have to shop at the same supermarket every week - sometimes you go to A supermarke and sometimes you go to B - depending on what you need that week.

If it suits you and your family, then do it!

regarding what to say when during the service - our services follow the new Common Worship, and when it came in, our church had a service booklet produced.
So, we basically follow that through the service.
It has some bits where you can say this prayer or this prayer, and the priest/reader always says which one we will use.
they also say "the service continues with the prayer at the top of page 14" or whatever. it means that even if you're new, you can follow the service and know what you're supposed to say.

Yorkshire - i love sung eucharist best. I find it really hard to go to a service where everything except the hymns is said. To me, it makes the service feel longer and less spiritual somehow.
I don't feel as close to God when I'm not singing.

from TUO - "26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. "

I've put John 14: 26 and 27 in to give it a bit of context.

This is all really relevant [snigger] to me at the moment as I've been asked to head up a small group looking at revitalising the worship in our church, as it's obv not hitting the spot and bringing newbies in. One thing I'm thinking around is the whole service book/hymn book thing. We have a common worship book where we have to look up the various pages, skipping ahead and back etc, then a hymn book and service sheet, except at all age services where we only have it on the screen. I prefer it on the screen as I like my hands free and to be able to look up and concentrate on the words, do people here have any particular reservations about just having the service on the screen, perhaps with large print service sheets available too with it all set out?

Any more ideas appreciated too - also rethinking the peace and the sung worship. Now I find this a hard one, as most of you know I'm more into contemporary worship but love the richness of the old hymns and would love to bring the two together, but when we do it just doesn't work. Just pondering on it...basically the newer songs sound awful on the organ, so we ask our organist to play the piano sometimes and he is more than happy to do this, but some members of the congregation don't like this. So hard to please everyone.

Thinking aloud here. Just want to revamp things so it is a service which reflects the power and glory of God, is welcoming, relevant and sensitive to needs. Asking the impossible??

ooh, i don't like it on the scren, because you have to keep your head facing one way, which is annoying (makes my neck stiff - not so good for oldies either!)
I much prefer to hold a book when i'm singing, cos it means i don't have to worry aboutwhat to do with my hands (down by the side, clasped in front, folded, etc? )
I had this experience at our sister church at christmas and i just felt really awkward every time we stood up.

At my lastchurch, we had a service book laid out for each season - all taken from Common Worship, but specific passages and prayers and settings.
eg the booklet would say "from Epiphany to Lent" "During Lent" "from Easter to Trinity" etc.
It means that we had something different regularly, but each service followed the booklet straight through without deviation or wondering what page to go to next etc.

It's useful for your service booklet to STATE when you should stand, or sit/kneel, because if the priest forgets to tell you, you've got loads of old biddies not daring to sit down and then complaining that they had to stand for too long!

I personally would have separate services with separate types of worship music - it's soo hard to have both in one service, because it feels like it's not supposed to fit.
Not saying nothing new and modern, just saying in one service only use hmyn-sounding music and in another use worship-song-sounding music.

Have a choir or music group /singing/playing during communion, and soft music before the service begins, too.

Or, what about having the exact same format every week, but having different types of hymns? say 1st and 3rd sundays, traditional hymns and music, 2nd and 4th sundays have worship songs and music?
then noone will think that the service is different every week, but they also know that they won't have to suffer the other flavour's rubbish every week!

(with my idea, it means all you need is a Service Booklet and a hmyn book/sheet - and you could always also put the hymns on the overhead projector screen - best of bot hworlds, then!)

Really good ideas nickel, thanks. I get what you're saying about the screen being more awkward for some. I'm thinking a service booklet, with it all laid out, a song book and the screen for those who prefer, then can be good for all, hopefully?

Mmm thinking about your ideas of 1st and 3rd etc...only thing with that is, our all age tends to be of the newer songs type and some members of the congregation refuse to come, don't want to alienate them from another. I have been in churches and meetings where the old and new have blended in an amazing way, but think you need good musicians etc and we just don't have the resources. Good to think about it. Maybe we just need to concentrate on having a list of say 30 hymns/songs to pick from so the congregation get to know them really well which makes for better quality iyswim, rahter than just having loads of random hymns which are just picked based on the lectionary and sometimes nobody knows them and it's just the organist bless him.

i think i've heard some churches surrepticiously (sp) introduce the more modern songs by having them played before the service.

So, you could do it by having the music group playing away in the corner (maybe with singers, too - then you c ould hand out sheets of the songs that will be played with words on, so people can join in if they want to) - you can do this from say 20mins before the service till about 3 or 4 mins beofre it starts.

and you can get away with putting a worship song in as the offertory hymn - people can sing along if they want, but they can also concentrate on getting their money sorted and pretend it doesn't exist!

again, having something modern during communion so they can sit and listen or ignore if they want.

I would veto your idea of only having 30 or so hymns/songs to choose from. in my experience, people get bored of that!
but! that's not to say you can't have a small section of the same ones over and over (eg the before the service section i mentioned)

ther are loads of ways you can slip in the modern without the oldies feeling they're being pushed out.

In my previous church, we used 2 hymn books, and every service there would be 2 modern and 2 old hmyns/songs, according to the lectionary and theme. (and during communion, we would sing one choir anthem and one hymn/song from Songs of Fellowship)
If you're a member of the RSCM, they do a Sunday by Sunday, which lissts all the hymns and worship songs, anthems and music that's appropriate to the lectioanry for that week. They cover everything , including all the hymn books usually in use now, and Taize and world music. I would recommebnd joining jsut for that!

That sounds really useful. we're not in the RSCM as far as I know. Apparently the church used to have a good choir but it has died out which is such a shame.

Thanks for the ideas - all going into the pot!

If there is anything I can do to help MHD, just shout. I've some experience of putting service sheets together. You know where I am...

sorry - gate crashing here on Nickel's invite

Have't read everyone's updates sorry - though will try to later once the DS's are in bed.

Anyhow - some of you probably know that this week is the week of Prayer for Christian Unity, our Churches Together have organised even prayer meetings hosted by the different churches each night.

Friday night is our churches turn and the vicar asked me (just as I was taking a deep breath after Christmas ) if I could put together a short video for with music and stills etc to help them focus on the need for Christian Unity......

So I set to it and came up with \link{\this video}

Showed her the "draft" copy today (before I'd produced it) and she said it was "even better than she expected" . (and one of my FB friends said it loooked "very professional" and another shared it with her friends before realised that I had put it all together).

I've only recently started doing this sort of stuff, apart from my hastily put together MN Secret Santa thank you one, and a really really short one for a friend I'd only set pictures to one song in a video format.

It's been a real labour of love (and time!)and despite "just being the organist" (haha) am hoping I get a chance to do more of this type of thing

Can I join please?

:)

I've just gone back to church, after moving 200 miles.

I first went at 3, and mum sent us to the methodist church linked to our school. I only found out recently she'd originally tried the local Cof E and found it so unfriendly that she sent us to the methodist with our neighbours.

At 16 a boyfriend introduced me to a high Church with incense, bells and sung mass, and I found I peferrred that format (esp of knowing what comes next so you don't have to actively think).

I moved when I got married and there was no high church in the town we ended up in. Brought the children up in a local CofE.

We've moved again, and I tried the local CofE, which advertised itself on its website as "welcoming and friendly". Not one person spoke to me, and DD wasn't impressed at being left in the Sunday school. So I tried the methodist and it's like going home. I feel I've come full circle. I'd still prefer High Anglican but the methodist is indeed welcoming. Everyone speaks to me and DD went off to Junior Church without a murmur (tho its sad that when I was at SS as a child we had about 60 kids, whereas now there are about 10, from about 4 families :( )

Great video Baroque, it does look really good. I love doing stuff like that too.

Hi Attilla and tallulah :)

Thanks Mary, might well be asking for some advice. btw remember that article you helped me with, it's been published this month, will send you a link, thanks :)

Thanks MHD

I only discovered I had any form of video editing software on my computer totally by accident end of last year. Was getting on ok with it - and then decided that I'd upgrade to the newer version of it as a treat to myself.........right before I started this video. So I suddely found that I didn't have a clue what I was doing with the software as the free version that had been on my laptop when I got it was considerably older than the upgrade I bought .

I could have got the whole thing done in an hour (or less) once I'd gathered the images and stats together by just putting the pictures on, adding subtitles and adding the music.....

but oh no - that would be FAR too simple for me so I've spent hours fine tuning timings and creating pictures in microsoft for the words and then using chroma key to make them blend better, and turning them into Pip files .

It was really challenging spiritually and mentally to do though, and I've started to ask questions of myself of "where" I want to go career/job wise.

Should be going back to work this year when DS3 starts school (woohoo) and will probably start out in something totally random just to get my foot back on the work ladder. But after that........well I thought/think I want to do Family Support Work.......but now I'm not sure, I feel like I'm not at a cross roads, but a spaghetti junction of decision and hoping I get some clairty in the next few months.......

I recently put a poem on the newsletter - a New Year poem and it got me thinking/wondering/questioning myself too.

\link{http://www.heavensinspirations.com/new-year.html\this one}

new experiences, new opportunities to explore.......not sure where that's taking me.

Off to Spring Harvest in April with a group from church (which are mostly my closest friends too ) - hoping(?!) that somewhere along the line I'll figure out wher eI should be going.

Right now I feel like there's 50 doors in front of me, about 10 of them are ajar and I can just see a little glint of what's inside.....but I don't know if it's one of those doors - or one that's still shut I should take!

Hello... In haste sorry, but just a few brief thoughts for MHD...

I'd go for a service sheet and then put the words for the hymns/songs on the screen (and maybe also provide a hymn/song book for those that want it). As you know, I have reservations about powerpoint in this context, but perhaps I've had only bad (reductive) experiences of it, so may well be biased. You could put readings up on the screens too for those that want them. (I prefer to just listen... hmm... am starting to think that I am just not a very 'visual' person!)

I'd go for a service sheet for prayers/responses and suchlike though, because some people (oh, OK, I mean... me!) might prefer to pray with heads bowed or even with their eyes closed (my dd2 tells me not to close my eyes because 'you look freaky, mummy' ) and not want to have to look up and at a screen. (Hey... random thought, but wouldn't it be cool if you could have screens built into the seat backs like on transatlantic flights? But I realise that's in the realm of fantasy now!) I don't know how feasible it is to do a new sheet each week, so that you have everything for that particular service on it and there's no either/or or fumbling around with 'where are we now?' type considerations. The US church we went to did this, and also included a colouring [sorry 'coloring'!] page for the kids. I agree with nickel that precise instructions about when to sit/stand/kneel are useful here too.

On the music issue, I also agree with nickel... keep the joiny-inny bits to one specific style (i.e. all traditional hymns, or all modern songs), but introduce, say, a more modern song or a traditional anthem or whatever before the service when people are arriving and/or during communion.

I also think that, to avoid upsetting the 'regulars' you need to be clear about why you are making changes... If you explain that you understand that they like a particular style but that you are on a recruitment drive and that you want to mix it up a bit for a trial period of xx weeks and ask them to bear with you they might find that they actually like the new style, but even if they don't they might not actually vote with their feet. People can be very conservative and unwilling to embrace change, but they are better at doing so when you explain why you think change is needed (or just why it might be helpful).

Does that help at all?