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Philosophy/religion

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Religion Chat thread number 1

1002 replies

nickelbabyjesus · 31/12/2010 15:29

I wanted to put some random thoughts and stuff regarding church, without it having to be a debate or a specific topic (and not prayers, either)

It's basically, a "what happened at church (or in my musical/spiritual life) this week" thread. Grin
Please join me!

I'll start:

We had Midnight Mass (on Christmas Eve, would you believe!), and it was half past 11, everyone was sitting and ready for the service to start - I waved the organist to give me my notes: he was just about to plat them when:
" TAXI FOR suchandsuch " came blaring out of our speaker system. Angry
There's a Wetherspoon's over the road and looks like the DJ's mike was on the same frequency as our radio mikes.
So, all the congregation started giggling and we had to wait 5 minutes until everyone was calm and collected enough to carry on.

OP posts:
nickelbabysnatcher · 13/01/2011 10:37

thanks :)

we do have a church hall, by the way, it's just round the back and it's a bit of a disturbance to get to it during the service! Grin (the sunday school used to be in there, so they would go out after the first hymn and come back for communion)
one of the things we're supposed to be looking at is making a toilet facility inside the church - problem is, where do you put it without changing what's already in there? (grade II listed building, so we can't just plonk on an extension!)

One of the reasons why we're all very excited about our junior chorister is that it's a young person coming to the church, by choice, and enjoying himself and the traditional service Grin

I can see that having 5 churches could be even worse than having 2! if you end up in the church that has the fewest congregants, even if it's filling the gap, then you're in danger of being closed. although, in a way, being one of 5, you're protected, because I guess you're spread out? But you don't want to overlap services with the others.

BetsyBoop · 13/01/2011 11:39

MHD, thanks for your PM :)
Thanks for the other responses, will read later as dashing to pick DS up from nursery now...

thanksamillion · 13/01/2011 19:52

Hi all
Interesting thread (I read some of it a few days ago but didn't get round to posting).

The 'style' issue of churches is such a hard one I think, because we're all called to be part of the body of Christ which surely implies some kind of working together/relationship. But at the same time there are such variances of how people approach worship and what works for them it seems almost impossible to be a coherent whole. I'm not sure I've ever come across a church which has it truely sussed. My home church (I'm a missionary so overseas in quite a different church) is a smallish free church and there's generally a tolerance of people trying out different things which I think is probably the best way to be (not saying it's perfect of course!).

I'd second whoever said that websites are important. We've moved round a fair bit in the UK and always start by checking out churches websites. DH is always downloading sermons too so if anyone knows of any good preachers who post let me know Smile

bucaneve · 16/01/2011 15:32

I'm really enjoying this thread, it's so interesting hearing about all the different types and styles of services.

It's also making me think 'Blimey it must involve so much organising in order to run a parish and have something for everybody! e.g. some traditional stuff/some stuff for families/some stuff for people who are new to the whole thing' Grin

Also, what's a cell group? It's not a term I've ever come across before

TotallyUnheardOf · 16/01/2011 16:36

Hi all... I've been away for a couple of days and have been trying to think a bit more while sitting in dull meetings about the question of relevance.

I think that the question is, what do people actually mean when they say that they don't feel that the church (or 'church' in general - any church) is 'relevant' to them/their lives? It's not something I'd ever say, personally, because I am not really looking (and wasn't before I started going to church) for something 'relevant', and I am not even sure what it means... Something that will tell me how to live my life? Well, that might be true in some cases (if someone feels that their life has really gone badly off-track and is looking for an impetus to put it right), but I suspect not the majority. My sense is that most people already have a set of values by which they live. Political guidance? Surely not... So I am guessing that we are talking about something that simply (ha ha... except that it's not simple, is it?) speaks in some way to the individual; something that does not feel totally remote from the other things that they do in their lives.

I suspect that, when some people say 'I don't come to church because it's not relevant to me/my life', what they mean is 'I don't believe in God so please stop bothering me'. Well... fair enough. But if people are actually coming to church - even if only once - and then saying that it doesn't feel relevant to them, then it's really worth trying to get to the bottom of what they mean. One way is to ask them, I suppose. What would they like the church to be doing that would make it more relevant? Is it a question of old-fashioned/unfamiliar music and language? Or is it something deeper? What was it that got them through the door in the first place, before they got put off by the lack of relevance? And how can the church community build on whatever that impulse was?

For me, the impulse was really not easily definable, but it was more in the nature of a spiritual itch which needed scratching (ugh... horrid metaphor, sorry!)... the famous 'God-shaped hole', I suppose. For me, having had a fairly religious upbringing and since I work with theological ideas all the time in my job, it was not difficult to slot into the 'mechanics' (as it were) of a church service, and the hurdle was to do it in a way that involved properly opening myself up to God and not just going through the motions. But for some people the motions themselves are offputting, aren't they? I don't know if it would help to make it clear that it's OK to approach the church (indeed, to approach God) in a spirit of doubt; that you don't have to be a committed (and informed?) believer before you step through the church door; that it's OK not to join in with any part of the service that you feel uncomfortable with (not to go up for communion/blessing; perhaps not to join in with the Creed if you don't feel ready to say categorically 'I believe in one God...'); that no-one will judge you for that, but that they will be willing to explain (there was a good example above - was it from you, bucaneve? - of a sermon explaining the meaning for our everyday lives of passing the Peace). The more I think about it, the more I think that it's this sense that you have to pass some sort of 'faith entry exam' before you can attend church that stops many people coming (back) to church. In this case 'It's not relevant to me' means 'I am not sure if it's relevant to my position as a doubter/agnostic/interested fence-sitter/whatever'.

The more obvious way of asserting the church's relevance to people's lives (but I am sure people have thought of this, precisely because it is obvious) is to look at the issues that matter in people's lives and to ask how the church can feed into those... Here childcare and education loom large, and church playgroups or after-school clubs or Sunday schools or the messy church initiatives that people have written about on here obviously have a role to play. Other things that spring to mind are things like the environment (I know that many churches have links with the free-trade movement, don't they?), like the role of chaplains in hospitals, prisons, universities or wherever, where the church can offer support to people at often difficult times. All this can help - and can also help to counter the unhelpful vision of the church (not just the Anglican church, though I am thinking particularly of that at the moment) that emerges from the media, as being all about the role of women or about sexuality generally... and not much else [sigh]!

Finally (and I do realise that I've written an essay here, for which I apologise - have been thinking about this for a few days now!), I do think that it can help to challenge the perception of a need for relevance. Is watching 'The X Factor' relevant? Is playing football relevant? It's not quite right to classify going to church as a 'leisure activity', but if that's not quite what it is, it is, at least, what it's competing with. If I think about my Sunday mornings before I went to church, what did I do? As a mother, I was certainly not lying in bed all morning [if only!]; I'd be walking the dog, tidying the house, maybe popping to the shops, getting the dds to do their homework... To some extent one of the barriers is to work out a way of fitting 'going to church' into our busy lives. And yet it's hard to argue that we are really 'too busy' to go... it's a question of normalising it (someone above said that that was one of the nice things about this thread - that people were talking about going to church as a normal activity) and making it something that we 'just do', like turning on the TV for an hour after dinner, or walking the dog after the school run, or whatever. In a way, it reminds me a bit of going to the gym... It feels uncomfortable the first time, and tough for the first few times, but eventually it starts to become less painful and more enjoyable, until finally you can't imagine how you got by without it. [Hmm... should probably apply that logic to my own state of flabbiness and go to the gym as well as to church! Grin]

OK... sorry this is so long and waffly. I apologise for my self-indulgence in writing so much. It might all be [ahem] 'irrelevant' anyway, but those were my thoughts anyway!

madhairday · 16/01/2011 17:38

TUO don't apologise, great post with some really interesting points. What you say about lives being different now and so busy fits in with my thinking at the moment on church in general and new ways of being church. I am a big fan of the fresh expressions concept and dh and I are exploring ways we can 'be' church, and yes absolutely that it shouldn't be somewhere people come and have to know what to do and join in with everything etc.

I've been leading a seekers group similar to alpha lately (less prescriptive) with a group of mums from school. They all wanted to carry it on to a Thursday morning group in whatever form, from meeting for coffee to studying the bible and more tenets of Christianity etc. A few of them have mentioned they'd like to come to church but can't practically or don't feel ready. I put it to them that this group could be church as much as a building; for we are forming a community, learning more about God and hopefully eventually learning to worship, pray and be missional. This is the type of thing I mean - start where people are. 2 of them have started to come to 'big' church but feel very much on the fringes and that's fine, the others sometimes come to messy church etc. It's about redifining it and making it into something accessible and something that people will see as having 'relevance' - whatever that means Grin

Ok am now waffling! Bucaneve it was probably me that mentioned the word cell group, in a way it's what I've been talking about above. It's kind of another name for house group but is basically groups of people from a church meeting together for worship, prayer, bible study, social, questioning etc etc. The cell idea comes from the concept that cells divide and multiply, and if a church is healthy cells should be doing just that to keep the growth going. Lots of good literature on it if you're interested. :)

TotallyUnheardOf · 16/01/2011 17:56

Your seekers groups sounds great MHD and I think that your attitude is exactly right. I also feel on the fringes atm (except on here!) and my only reservation about going to the cathedral rather than a more local church is that I don't really see that changing. But small steps are OK, I think... especially since I feel I've taken the big step internally (if that makes sense) so I have faith that the rest will fall into place.

bucaneve · 16/01/2011 20:41

No I think the post you mean was by IAmRubyLennox :)

I agree with you TotallyUnheardOf about people feeling like there's some kind of test they have to pass before they can call themselves a Christian or go back to Church or whatever. Actually, I was at a dinner party on Thursday where the conversation turned to religion and one of the guys said "I'd like to be able to call my self a Christian but I'm not sure I'm allowed" - I guess because he wasn't sure he believed in enough of it to be a 'proper' Christian.

TotallyUnheardOf · 17/01/2011 09:53

Yes, bucaneve... that's exactly what I meant! (And sorry to RubyLennox for mis-attributing her post.)

Just to clarify that (obviously!) I meant 'fair trade' above, not 'free trade'. 'Check what you have written carefully'... as I tell my students! Blush

nickelbabysnatcher · 17/01/2011 13:24

TUO - your long post was great!
It's exactly what I think, too - there does seem quite a lot of pressure to immediately "fit in" in the a new church, and often that's what puts people off.

I think a variety of (short!) sermons is what's needed - certainly, being a lifer, I don't want to hear the same stuff being said over and over again - one thing that we do at our church now we're without a priest is have guest speakers to do the sermons, so every week, it's someone new. They approach their sermon with the gospel reading (normally, although sometimes it's relevant to the other reading too), and use that to illustrate what's important in our daily lives today, in the 21st century.
What's great about having guest speakers is that it's never the same (i'm sure everyone knows the phrase "preaching to the choir" where because we're always there, we've heard it all a million times before), and having someone else's perspective is sooo very important to how we see our faith (and our lives).
I've done a bit of moving around in my time, and one of the things that always put me off a church was being pounced upon by people - I don't mind a Hello and a welcome, but I don't want to be approached about anything other than that when I go in.
As I had a traditional upbringing, the first time I went to a church where they passed the peace, i was very freaked out and never went back. It wasn't so much that they were wishing me peace, it was that they were doing it uninvited, and so profusely like they knew me, rather than a gentle, "hello how do you do", thing.
I only got comfortable with passing the peace when I joined a choir - because I knew the people I was saying peace to (i went to choir practices for a couple of months before I started being in the choir in the services). I still found it horrible to pass peace amongst anyone else.
But that's mainly because my upbringing was that you concentrated on GOD during the service, and then you went to "breakfast" where you talked to people. I know it's different now, but I think that's a huge thing.
There are some very friendly people in my church, and in all churches I've been to, but I think that passing the peace should be kept to a minimum - almost a nod to the fact that we're all here together worshipping God, but not taking away the concentration from God himself.

As for having church as a regular part of your week- it should be no more difficult than taking your children to school or going to the shops. But these days people feel like tehy have to make time for it. I personally have never felt this, because church has always been part of my sunday routine. It doesn't take much effort to make it part of the routine. although, i can see with young children it must be hard to make sure everyone's ready in time (as it is on a weekday!)
once you're there, it's no hassle.

nickelbabysnatcher · 17/01/2011 13:30

sorry, i waffled there too! Blush

yesterday was evensong week, so we had 2 services to attend.
traditionally, evensong is attended by more staff than congregation! and this week was no exception.
We're having problems with choir numbers these days, and a pair of our choir is old (the husband is suffering from health and fitness problems) so they only came to evensong - meant that we were short on the ground in the morning (and short on skill....)
have to keep reminding DH that we're there to worship God with our singing, not to please the congregation, but it's very hard when they can hardly hear us. (although, sometimes that's a goooood thing! Grin )

I've suggested that we do a unison version of our settings because our tenor line is inexperienced at best and unconfident. the problem is that the altos and basses carry the tune (in the Gloria), and we've only got one of each of those now, so when the tenors and sops carry the descant, the congregation is left without anyone to follow.
We have unison copies- it'd mean that the tenors would be singing what the conrgegation sings, to help them join in, and the sops would still be singing the descant, to make it sound pretty.

madhairday · 17/01/2011 14:02

That's interesting what you say about the Peace, nickel. I think it might be a bit of a 'turn off' point in our church. Although it's a traditional anglican common worship service they tend IMO to go overboard on the peace, this was brought home recently when a friend who has recently started coming said it made her feel uncomfortable. Basically there's lots of warm handshakes and hugging and kissing, when I joined the church I hated it tbh, as the new curates wife I got more than my fair share of hugs and kisses Hmm All very well meaning and lovely people but it can be a bit much.

Hmmm, maybe I should say something in DCC...

nickelbabysnatcher · 17/01/2011 14:04

it is worth bringing up - regulars probably don't even notice - they're just being friendly. (sorry you got bombarded!)
Maybe a comment saying please just say hi to newbies and then make a point to chat to that newbie at coffee. :)

TotallyUnheardOf · 17/01/2011 14:22

Interesting about the Peace... I remember when the new prayer books came in [... I am very old!] and people were hugely reticent about it. My mum sat next to the same woman in church for about 10 years and never spoke to her. Not only that, but she was horrified at the idea that she should, you know... shake her hand and wish peace upon her! And of course if you're a teenager it can be excruciating (a Shock boy Shock might 'peace' you...! [faints])! I am fairly shy, but I don't seem to mind it so much now. I only 'do' the people around me, mind... I don't go wandering around looking for people to randomly hug. (Actually, I only hug my kids... otherwise it's a handshake.) In the US there was some high-5-ing [Stereotypes R Us!], which was just funny (to us Brits).

As a not-very-good singer, nickel, I'd say definitely go for the unison parts if it'll help the congregation to stay with you. Otherwise you'll just lose everyone.

nickelbabysnatcher · 17/01/2011 14:31

Shock a boy ! Shock

my thoughts exactly - TUH. we used to have a rota of different settings (changed every 3 months) and then only did them every other week when the new vicar came. then the new vicar left (thank you God!) and in the interregnum we've been singing every week - i've been trying to suggest to DH that the same setting for longer is a better plan, and he's thinking about it (this rota system has been in place for about 40 years or more!).Cos the congregation isn't that big, either, it's harder for them to really sing up! during those bits.
and if the present congregation isn't able to do it, then any newcomers will be a bit confused as to what is supposed to be happening.

Housemum · 17/01/2011 14:41

Having not gone to church for a few years, I was stunned by the whole offering a sign of peace in the last church I went to - growing up, it had always been shaking the hands of the people either side and in front/behind - my view being that by extension everyone is included. The last church I went to, it was as if we'd stopped for half time - people wandering around the church and saying hello to people, took about 5 minutes! To my mind, that takes away from the service. Other than the fact that I am actually hoping to become Catholic, the other reason for leaving the last (C of E) church that I went to was that somehow religion seemed to have been lost in the general "niceness" - it felt more like going to a social club with the occasional communion service. I like the church I go to now - mass is the same every time, just with the appropriate readings. No dancing around the church to hug people for peace. Short and to the point homily/sermon. You know what you are getting and it feels "right"

Housemum · 17/01/2011 14:44

And a couple of "funnies" from 2 of my DDs:

  • on watching communion (and the vicar at the time was wearing full garb and had a white beard), "what's God got in his sandwich up there?"
  • at DD3's baptism, they were read the story, "God's Wonderful Earth" and when the storyteller said that on the 6th day God created something wonderful, any idea what it was? my 5 year old DD2 piped up, "Disneyland"
  • in the total silence at mass when they rang the bell, DD3 (2 years old) calls out "stop that noise"
nickelbabysnatcher · 17/01/2011 14:51

Grin at your funnies Grin kids say such sweet things!

I thin kther are quite a few people who've though about going catholic because of the CofE seeming not to cater anymore, but i think you've got to shop around.

I'm thankful for being in the choir every time we pass peace, cos we get time to to it to each other, then we have to rush back to our places in time for the next hymn to start! Wink (all the congregation can carry on snogging when the hymn's in progress)

bucaneve · 17/01/2011 15:12

Eek some of these peaces seem a bit full on, especially for people who are new to going to church.

At all the churches I've been to its never more than a quick handshake-smile-mumbling of 'peace be with you' to the people immediately around you. Having said that, I do like that we have the peace though.

I'm Catholic so church can sometimes feel like you're doing things by rote. i.e. stand up, sit down, kneel, stand up, sit down, kneel :) and while it's nice to have that continuity of something congregations have been doing for hundreds of years, it's also nice to do a quick "peace" and remember that church is about the people in the here and now aswell.

madhairday · 17/01/2011 15:16

lol at God creating Disneyland Grin

So consensus is the peace is a good thing as it grounds us in here and now and is a good opportunity to actually make peace, but taken too far is a turn off and should be toned down.

nickelbabysnatcher · 17/01/2011 15:17

exactly, MHD - we like to say Hi and peace, but we don't want a snogathon! Grin

TotallyUnheardOf · 17/01/2011 15:42

LOL @ snogathon.

Was also reminded by bucaneve of the Simpsons episode when they are considering becoming Catholic (in order to send Bart to a Catholic school of course) and Marge, I think, describes a Catholic service as 'like "Simon says..." but without the prizes'.

MHD, yes, and I think perhaps some explanation of why it's being done. To the uninitiated it might feel like the prelude to some sort of ritual that they haven't been let into. And maybe a 'code' (spoken or unspoken) - as seems to work in practice in the churches I've been to - where if you stand up/move around a bit it means you are up for a bit of 'peace-passing' but if you shake hands with your immediate neighbours and then sit back down it means 'leave me alone'...

Housemum · 17/01/2011 15:58

I would definitely say that the Catholic church is a bit scary to an "outsider". Luckily, a lot of the service is very similar to the sort of C of E service I grew up with, and I am going to an evening group at the church where all of us newcomers can ask questions, but there is an assumption at the service that everyone knows what's going on or has already joined the "journey in faith" group. In C of E churches, every one I've been to has handed out a service book (if Communion) or a service sheet (general worship services) so you knew where you were/what the responses were.

nickelbabysnatcher · 17/01/2011 16:07

i've only been to a catholic church service once, and it amused me, because at the time i was 15 and going to different denomiations with a Christian Scientist friend of mine (just to compare). It was funny becuase I'd been told that catholics were soo very traditional, and yet it was more modern than my own CofE church! (they said mass in modern english without thees and thous etc)

TotallyUnheardOf · 17/01/2011 16:37

Yes. I've only been to Catholic Mass once (at my dds' school in the US) and it was very very similar to the Anglican services I am used to. Just had to remember to stop at 'deliver us from evil' in the Lord's Prayer, as I had already embarrassed myself at an open evening when they had opened with prayers and I continued gaily on, all on my own, with 'For thine is the... [cough, splutter Blush]'.

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