my dog has just bitten my little girl

[heartsore]

and i am going to have to put him to sleep now and i am feeling horrific. i feel terrible that i let my daughter get bitten (by keeping my dog whom i love even though i know he isnt safe with kids) and that i am going to have to say goodbye to my dog.

am just grateful that he didnt get her face but her hand.

oh god, i cant talk about this in RL with anyone because they will all just tell me its my own fault and i know it is, but that doesnt mean im not going to miss my dog.

and my poor DD, god, i feel awful

sorry this is a bit scrambled i am just so so upset.

Well said, Midori.

Of course the danger in saying anything on these threads which might suggest that dogs are not always at fault is that you get a torrent of abuse from all the anti-dog people.

A little more knowledge would go a long way in helping dogs and people live harmoniously. And no, I'm not referring to the OP: I would never dare presume to cast judgement on a dog or owner I have never even laid eyes on.

"but it is far from uncommon to have a show dog bred with her son in the hope of producing more show dogs"

Really?!

This is something that hasn't been done with frequency for many years now. It is certainly unheard of in my breed and not something any scrupulous breeder would do.

I would imagine it is something that would mainly happen in a puppy farming situation, not responsibel breeding in any way.

Perhaps you can give examples?

And yes Bella, I agree. I am sure it is outrageous to suggest a dog may not always (or usually!) be responsible for a situation which arises where a person is bitten.

One more and I'm out of here - these threads go nowhere

Rhubarb - the trouble with using Wikipedia as your reference us that you, like EAS, end up talking about designer crosses and puppy farming. If you are interested I can point you to several far more authoritative sources on dog genetics.

I teach my dc to be very wary around other dogs, and to treat our own with the utmost respect - do not go near them in their beds, stay away while they are eating, etc. Basic common sense precautions.

The situation at the school gates is one I would not be happy with either but try - just for a moment - to put yourself in the dog's position. Imagine I tied you to some railings and some youths came running up to you - how would you feel? Maybe a little vulnerable? Possibly? Well, yes, you say, but I wouldn't bite. Of course not - but then you have a much more sophisticated language abilty than dogs. Dogs typically have 3 stages in showing their fear or unhappiness: growl, freeze, bite. That's it. And different dogs have different bite thresholds for different triggers. So one dog might not mind a child haring past, while another will bite. Some might remember being trodden on by a boisterous child and how much it hurt.

Lastly - dogs did not evolve to defend their territory from us. If you read Ray Coppinger's widely acclaimed work you will see that domestic dogs are now believed to have descended from dogs which scavenged on our early rubbish dumps. Only the dogs with the shortest flight distance (i.e. the ones most comfortable to stick around humans) prospered.

Over and out.

I feel really sorry for you but you really have no choice but to have the dog put down.

How is your DD? Did she need to see a doctor or anything?

Yes Bella, as I said earlier down the thread, a dog is incapable of making intelligent judgements as we are. So a child running towards a dog may be perceived as a threat by a dog, or a child that makes a grag for a dogs tail is also hugely threatening for that dog. Which is why dog owners whose dogs are skittery amongst children, should not then tether dogs outside school gates and then wonder why parents complain about their children being bitten.

And when my mother was breeding show dogs - and indeed my brother - it was spoken about in hush-hush terms but pedigree dogs were often inbred for purity.

However it's not pedigree pampered pooches we are talking about here, it's dangerous dogs, whether they are listed as dangerous or not.

And Bella, whilst you may teach your children about respecting the dogs space, what of those children who are not taught that?

My point, which has not been answered, is how can you be certain that a breed such as a mastiff or a Ridgeback is fully under control when out and about.

The owners may not have children, but I presume they will walk the dog, even let the dog off the lead to have a run about. Most popular dog walking areas are in parks and across fields, which are also popular places for children to play football and other games that involve general dashing about. How do you protect those children when in charge of an extremely strong dog with no experience of children?

Or indeed adults? How many adults are bitten I wonder by strange dogs? You cannot keep a dog locked up day and night and if you cannot guarantee that a skittish dog will not bite a child, then that dog should not be here. Sorry but it's not fair on the dog to place restrictions on it and it's not fair on the public to be put in danger of a dog that would prove extremely hard to control if it got scared and went to attack.

Rhubarb no dog will percieve children as a threat if it is properly socialised with them, and that is possible to do even if the owner does not have children. I would actually imagine dogs that are regularly taken toa school would be well used ot children. I have often stood with puppies in my arms outside the school gates waiting for my children precisely because it is of benefit to the dog.

As for show dogs being inbred and it is 'hush hush', I assume you are talking years and years ago as pedigrees are available for all to see and inbreeding is very rarely done these days. I could show you upteen pedigrees to prove my point. Most breeders work very har dto keep the COI down where possible and inbreeding would be counter productive to this.

Itr is perfeclt possible to ensure a large breed dog is under full control when out in public, and if there is any doubt whatsoever as to the dogs safety around children or other people when out and about, then the dog is muzzled and therefore unable to bite anyone at all.

Perhaps you have some statistics to show that the maojority or even many dog bites happen outside the home? IMO, most happen within the home.

Rhubarb, I'm sorry that you have had such unpleasant experiences with dogs.

In 45 years I've been bitten once, by an injured dog I was trying to help. Yet I've owned a dog/dogs for nearly 25 years, was brought up with them, I rescue them, foster them, train them. Stories like mine aren't unusual, but they don't often get heard because there is no fear or emotion attatched to not being bitten, nor does it sell newspapers.

I find it interesting that the calls to kill come from those without any/much experience with dogs whilst support for the dogs comes from those with either a dog training, veterinary, canine behavioural or similar hands-on background.

Dangerous breeds, by the way, don't exist, it's the deed not breed which needs addressing.

I'm sorry but I just disagree. In all of my childhood amongst dogs I've been bitten numerous times, although we were always told that it was our fault, we were too boisterous or frightened the dog or whatever. The bites all drew blood but none of them as serious as the two attacks I described.

I am not a dog hater. I just think that childrens safety is more important than the welfare of the dogs.

For all of you who say dogs outside a school is not a problem - I invite you to come with me on the school walk. Email or CAT me and I'll give you my address. You can then accompany me and my children as we do the daily dog shit hop to school, passing many dog walkers on the way, steering clear of the dogs we know jump up and passing the tethered dogs barking their heads off outside the school gates. We can then talk to the headmaster about the dog problem and he will confirm that children and staff have been bitten.

Do come. It's lots of fun.

This article from the BBC about the rise of dog bites is interesting, as are the comments below it.

Unfortunately I cannot find statistics that state whether the attacks were outside the home or not. I suspect there are many incidences of bites happening in public places that are not reported and therefore not part of the statistics.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a dog hater with no experience of dogs you know. That's a non-argument. The statistics speak for themselves and saying that those who do not share your view obviously don't know about the psychology of dogs is rot.

Once again no-one has answered how a rehabilitated dog could be made safe enough to walk in public. Possibly because you know that such dogs could never be trusted, that each time they are walked the owner is running a risk that the dog will come across a situation that threatens it and it will retaliate. Who is to blame then? The person who is bitten or the dog?

I may be wrong but I get the inference that a lot of people would be inclined to blame the person who was bitten.

I've lived with dogs my entire life, have worked with them, fostered them, the lot. I'm now almost as old as Val. I'm renaming her Sweet Val, btw

The only dog that ever bit me was a tiny terrier that ran out of someone's driveway as I walked past.

If you were bitten so much at home, Rhubarb, then I would respectfully suggest that your parents were not knowedgeable enough (and yes, I know they bred dogs but that doesn't equal knowledge) to ensure that did not happen. In those circumstances I can fully understand why your view of dogs is so skewed.

If you have been bitten 'numerous times' in childhood, I suggest maybe your parents were a little careless or you were extremely unlucky. My children have never been bitten by a dog, nor have I. That is despite the fact we see dogs all over the place and run into hundreds at shows.

It is also ridiculous that dogsoutside a school have bitten numerous times and no-one appears to report it to the police. Surely these dogs belong to parents and are there on a regular basis? I also find this strange, as again, I my experience of dogs whilst out walking or whatever really is a good one. Do your children go to school in a particularly rough area where people have 'status' dogs?

A rehabilitated dog is just that, rehabilitated. However, I don't think anyone would suggest precautions should not be taken. As I said previously, it is perfectly simple to keep a large breed under control using a headcollar and a muzzle prevents the risk bites completely.

I will openly say, I do not think many dog bites at all are the fault of the dog. That is not to say I think they are the fault of the person that was bitten, although sometimes it is. In the case of children, it is usually the fault of parents who allow the child to 'abuse' the dog and think it is cute to see said child clambering all over the dog 'cuddling' it. Or, the case of adults who have not bothered to properly socialise their dogs, or have brought them up incorrectly, which are then liek a time bomb waiting to go off.

I too have owned dogs most of my life. I was less then two years old when I was bought my own puppy, but my and dad had dogs when I was a tiny baby. They have been almost exclusively 'dangerous' breeds i.e. Dobermans, Akitas, Alsatians, Staffies.

I have been bitten twice and never by my own dog. Once by a rescued Rotty my Uncle took on, that had been neglected and abused and was in desperate need of professional training/rehabilitation, but it was never heard of in those days. And once by a Yorkshire Terrier that some mad old bat a lady in our street owned.

I hold my hands up to admit that the Rotty bite was my fault. I was told to sit down and stay away from the enclosure while my Uncle fed the dog, I didn't litsen. I went too close and antagonised the dog by waving about sausages and dancing stupidly. I was just a child who knew no better, I had never encountered a 'bad' dog before and didn't believe the dog would hurt me. The dog merely snapped to get the sausage, biting my hand in the process, but was quickly brought under control.

The terrier bit my ankle and wouldn't let go. It drew blood. No one tried very hard to get it off me apart from my friend. The owner just stood and watched as did her equally mad friend. That was my fault too apparently because I roller skated past it too fast and it didn't like children . The woman had owned the dog since being a young pup and it had never been mistreat.

I don't especially like Rotweilers, but I don't hate them. Yorkshire Terriers otoh are the work of the devil and the only breed that deserves to be on that stupid list . I'd much rather my children be exposed to Rotweilers than to Yorkies. Their nauture is much calmer and friendlier.

In both cases it was the owners who were at fault imo, not the dogs.

Shinyandnew, the 'nature' of small and toy dogs such as Yorkies is often determined by their paranoid owners who feel the need to pick them up and 'protect' them every time they perceive them as threatened (big dog coming over, child coming over etc). The dog then starts to think there is something wrong with big dogs/children or whatever and starts to get scared/wary of them, which in some dogs resorts in fear aggression.

Or, because the dogs are so tiny, everythign seems huge and scary to them. Dog gets scared, owner thinks it is cute/feels sorry for dog and coos 'there there, good girl, don't worry'. or picks the dog up, or whatever and the dog is then convinved it has something to be scared of.

I would imagine that something similar to the above is probably what happened with the dog who bit you, re-affirmed by the fact the owner said 'he doesn't like children' (err, well, train him to like children then!) and that is was your fault. So, although the dog wasnt' abused, the owner was probably at fault.

A lot of long posts here so haven't time to read all but I probably agree with everything Bella and Valhala said

I'm sorry OP that this has happened, I think you may be doing the right thing but still tough.
A note about the breed
Ridgebacks are exceedingly loyal dogs but on the whole not aggressive, however when they are bred with other dogs, the loyalty mixed with any guarding instinct can be dangerous.
I have 2 ridgebacks and 3 kids. They are big but trained and cared for and brought up properly large dogs can be easily handled and be exceptional with kids, as mine are.

But you have to be constantly vigilant with kids and dogs, it only takes one tiny mistake to ruin lives, ours and theirs...

Hear hear Rhubarb.

You are the voice of common sense.

My DS (7) is petrified every time we go on a walk now after a large dog ran at him and jumped up at him and he thought it was attacking him (it was after his stick he was playing army with).How we were supposed to know that I've no idea. It was the same size as him when it jumped up. The owner called my son a mard arse for getting upset .

I have no experience of dogs and have no idea how to train him to be dog aware and not scared.

Heartsore, you are doing the right thing for your child, I too would not want my family to be anywhere near a rehoused dog like that, who would?

hotpotmama, just a thought... if you have a friend or even know of a mum at school who has a friendly, well-trained dog, why not ask them to allow you and your son to go on a walk with them? That way you are near the dog but without being too up close and personal and can take it very gently and slowly in introducing your son to a dog and helping to alleviate his fears.

Over the course of the walk you can chat about being sensible (eg not stroking strange dogs without permission etc, though I'm not saying you DO let him do this, bu I hope yo get the gist), and perhaps your son could "walk" the dog, holding the lead with the owner or you holding on too, for the safety of the dog and reassurance of your lad. Your son would gain confidence by doing this and feel a real big lad with responsibility, walking a dog, all under controlled circumstances.

Hope this helps.

"Sweet" Val

Rhubarb, nowhere did I say that you or anyone was a "dog hater", nor did I say that you or any other poster didn't know about the psychology of dogs. I said "I find it interesting that the calls to kill come from those without any/much experience with dogs whilst support for the dogs comes from those with either a dog training, veterinary, canine behavioural or similar hands-on background.". I respect your right to an opinion and mine to disagree with it but please don't insinuate that I have employed expressions such as these as doing so detracts from what I am really saying and puts me undeservedly in an unfair position.

For information on rehabilitated dogs, have a trawl through the website forum of Poplar Farm Kennels, which proves it can be done.

Valhalla, what has been mentioned about the incident where the RSPCA removed all the dogs and killed some?

Have they explained why they did it? It just came to my mind, has it been resolved?

This explains better than I can, Mongolia.

As you'll see, some of the dogs from Rosedene are now in RSPCAs Barnes Hill kennels, where a visitor reports this:

"Hillman, Duke, Ella and Gucci are in another block and we weren't allowed to see them, although posters of them are on the notice board. Still quite a few missing. All the kennels had poo in them, every water bowl was empty and the kennels are... still old and open to the elements, in my view the kennels at Rosedene were alot better, at least they were indoors. One lucky dog had a 2 minute walk while we were there, he was took to the gate and back. At Rosedene they used to have long walks round a huge field..."

angry

Whoops! I meant of course!

Heartsore, so sorry to hear about what happened, something similar happened with my dog who bit one of my child's friends, he has now been put to sleep and we told my child he has gone to a place where there are no children. I understand you feel guilty about the dog and that it's your fault, I worked so hard to get my dog under control and trained, but at the end of the day he bit a child on the face without warning and provocation, and she will be scarred for life. I couldn't live with him attacking another child and although previously thought he'd never attack my daughter as he has grown up with her from being a pup, I could never say he wouldn't do it again. As we have young children around I just couldn't feel safe having him around them again even though this was the first time he'd bit a child.
It was only yesterday we had him put to sleep and I still feel sick about it and very upset, but then I remember this little girl is still in hospital and how serious it could have been and I'm certain she did nothing to provoke him so to avoid him hurting another child he has had to go. But because he's bitten before (adults) we know he would never be rehomed, we could have taken him to a rescue centre and I'm sure they would have put him down anyway. It's sad but I think the lesson here is dogs can be unpredictable and children's safety is more important. Don't beat yourself up about it.

Merrygold I'm very sorry for all that has happened to you and yours and to the little girl. My thoughts are with you all, your dog included.

I think it's important to say though, for the sake of dogs at risk and the sake of the reputation of no-kill rescues, that not all rescues would have put such a dog down. The big ones would, certainly, but there are some independent rescues and sanctuaries who would rehabilitate a dog of this kind or offer him a home for life themselves. I work with some rescues like this who have a genuine no-kill policy, except in cases where a dog is suffering incurably. Some admittedly say that this is their policy yet would use mental health as an excuse to PTS, but not all.

Should, heaven forbid, anyone be facing a situation like this I would beg you to post here using my name in the title and I will work with you to secure a suitable no-kill rescue place.

Wishing the little girl a full recovery, that your dog rests in peace and your family happier days ahead.

Val

it's very tricky though isn't it? Because there is IMO a difference between a dog that bites, and an agressive dog, iyswim.

Sometimes dogs bite because they've been poked/prodded/provoked in some way, because they're ill/in pain/reacting to something. And in those instances precautions can be taken to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

And also there's a difference between a dog that snaps or gives a one-off nip, and a dog that savagely attacks someone with the potentially fatal end-result or at best one of serious injury.

But sometimes dogs are agressive by nature. Maybe it's down to their treatment/their breeding/maybe it's just in their nature (much as people can be agressive ). And in those cases I think the question needs to be asked as to how responsible it is to rehome such a dog.

If you rehome an agressive dog, in the knowledge that it is agressive, who bears the responsibility if that dog then goes on to bite, or worse, kill someone?

Would anyone genuinely argue that the dog that killed Ellie Lawrence should have been rehomed rather than destroyed for instance?

Not all dogs that bite should be put to sleep. However I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether a knowingly agressive dog should be rehomed.