Is there anything I can do to discourage dogs from jumping up at / sniffing around my DS?

[megonthemoon]

I was going to post in AIBU, but I know that wouldn't achieve anything so wanted to come to Pets to see if there was any practical advice/suggestions?

We go out walking on the beach/hills a lot with DS (22mo, fairly small for his age). These are places where people tend to have their dogs off leads, and the dogs always seem super interested in DS, I guess as he is small. Although many owners call their dogs back and get a response and/or put them on leads when they see us near (yay to them!), many do not and I am getting a bit scared/annoyed and don't know what to do.

I am not a dog fan at all - quite scared of them really - but DS doesn't seem too fazed yet and I don't want to pass on my fears to him. However this weekend he has been a) knocked over by a lab, b) been licked in the face by a jumping Jack Russell, c) been sniffed at and circled by 2 or 3 different dogs and d) been loudly barked at by a bounding dog (although this dog didn't come up too close).

Shouting at the owners is futile I've found - they just say "oh he's being friendly" or "oh sorry" or try to call the dog back but don't really persist in gaining control - I just think this is crap behaviour of owners personally but I don't want to get into a blazing row. Is there anything I can do to discourage dogs coming near to DS, or to prevent them jumping up? I don't want to have to run over to DS every time I spy a dog, and nor do I want to have to keep picking him up. And I am petrified if one of these dogs turns violent if DS inadvertently does something to provoke them.

Any tips on what I should do?

I would shout to the owner "I will kick your dog if it jumps at my son".

Other than that, ensure your ds doesn't run away, scream or flap around.

tough q - because it's more a case of what the owners can/should do. as i'm sure you realise.the best way to respond to a dog doing anytghing unwanted is to ignore it. fold your arms and turn away from it. generally they want attention - so refusing to give them attention teaches tem that they won't get it. however this is more of a training/teaching/long term tip, ifswim - something to be applied consistently, to the same dog, so that it learns. and you, of course just want to deter whichever random dog comes bowling up to you and ds.

I would try the same tactic though. tell it to sit. if it has had any training at all you might be suprised and he/she might respond. re owners -very often I think people say "he's onkly being friendly" not becasue they think wht he's doing is ok, but because they want to reassure you he's not a biter. I wuld go withh a calm "I appreciate that. I hope you're working on training not to jump though".

This is appalling and I would be more than miffed if this happened to my DC's.

I would speak to the owners and as the dog is running towards me I would ask them to call their dogs back to them.

If as I expect they have no control over their dogs all your DS can do is cross his arms and turn sideways to the dogs and stand very still. They should find this boring and move onto someone else but you should not have to deal with this.

I bet these owners would be the first to complain if your son chased their dogs

Yes, some dog owners are numpties... occasionally though, most dogs, even those with a usually good recall have their 'off' moments, but that is no excuse. Probably the best thing to do (although not sure if it might make your son nervous) is to pick up your child and turn your back to the dog and stay silent. The dog is then far more likely to go back to the owner when being called, and even if it doesn't will quickly lose interest in you and your son and go away. If your son is on the ground, I expect most dogs would find him irresistably attractive/interesting.

I would probably try and have a word with the owners too. Some are just unaware that not everyone likes dogs running up to them (really!) I suspect most are just annoying though.

I'd be really really cross if this happened to my children. I'd as Minimu said and I think I would be tempted to takeva photo if you have a camera phone of both dog and owner and threaten to report them if the are unable to stop their dogs approaching. Hopefully it might be enough to make some owners think twice. I appreciate it is one thing suggesting it and another actually doing it when confronted with jumping dog and stupid owner.

Thank you! This is helpful advice. I guess I'm just surprised at how many people are a bit crap (rather than downright out of order, which is relatively few) about handling their dogs around other people - I do think it is just that they assume everyone is as in love with dogs as they are! And I know most dogs are unlikely to hurt DS. But I don't want them near us, kind of in the way I don't want DS to be near smokers or people who swear!

The only time I've really lost my rag with an owner - bounding golden retriever knocked him over then came bounding back just after DS had stood up and did the same - she just looked at me like I was an imbecile, told me there was no reason to get upset as he was very friendly with kids, and didn't even call her dog back and said a few choice words back to me

I don't want to worry DS. I have a fear of dogs (not due to any bad experience, I just don't 'get' them)but don't want to pass that on to DS if he actually likes them. But he's at an age where we need to do the looking out for him as he doesn't understand potential signs of danger or how to handle himself with animals.

Will work on teaching him to be boring around them though

The next time someone says 'oh he's just being friendly' you should get your ds to whip out a can of cheap bound-to-give-them-the-squits dog food. Owner is sure to protest at your DS feeding Fido to which you reply
'Oh he's only being friendly' before making a hasty exit.

Just to give a view from the other side - we have a 9 month old (but adult sized) lab, and she loves children so if one is walking past she will wander up to them for a cuddle. 99% of the time, the kids love her and she gets lots of attention, and therefore will do it to almost every child we see, because she thinks everyone wants to stroke her. She is never vicious and the first thing she usually does is sit for a treat, but, as a lab she can be a bit excited and clumsy, and has been known to knock smaller kids down by accident with her tail (and then kiss them!) .

We're always mortified and do our best to stop it happening, but sometimes the parent or child will call the dog over themselves, so there's not much you can do until you get to them (especially if you're in a big open area and people appear out of nowhere). No matter how hard you've worked on your training, some things are just more appealing than the owner at that moment! Actually I've never had anyone who minded, as they know she's just being friendly - but I have to admit if someone threatened to kick her, they'd get the sharp end of my tongue and I'd think they were pretty stupid as she's very obviously not a nasty dog (and people will react to you threatening their dog like you would react to someone threatening your child). Of course if a dog is vicious, you're within your rights to protect yourself - I've kicked a few nasty beasts in my time to see them off when they've attacked my own dogs (we get it too BTW - stupid idiots who can't control their dogs, even when they're vicious, so I understand the frustration).

I think it depends where you're walking too. If you're walking in a doggy area (by which I mean if you can't walk for 5 minutes without meeting a dog, whereas they could probably walk for hours without seeing a single small child, or any other reason to put their dogs on a lead) people will automatically assume that you're not scared of dogs and wouldn't necessarily think to call their dogs back. Others will be of the opinion that their dogs have as much right to be there as your DS, and therefore you having to pick him up is no different to them having to put their dog on the lead.

We only tend to walk in 'doggy' areas and TBH sometimes it can get pretty annoying when you're trying to exercise your dog and have to keep calling it back because there's small kids running about in what is clearly a dog walking area. Our local beach is always full of dog walkers and you still get people walking there who clearly hate dogs, and glare at you when you walk past as if you have no right to be there, or walk right along the shore line when the dogs are running in and out of the water, and you hear them tutting if the dog crosses their path. Yet there's a (bigger, nicer) dog-free beach two minutes up the road that they could use. We also walk at an old racecourse which is nothing but a big flat field, and is clearly a dog walking area (lots of poo bins, always full of dogs), but some people take their kids to walk (and picnic!) there and you see them having a fit whenever the dog runs within 100 meters of them. It always leaves me wondering why they don't walk their dogs in one of the dozen dog-free parks in the area instead

I know you have every right to walk wherever you like, I don't mean to imply otherwise, but if you choose to walk in doggy areas, you have to accept that you will meet dogs off the lead and some of them will come up to you (especially as most people who walk in doggy areas are doggy people, and therefore dogs think that everyone they see will like them and/or give them a cuddle and some treats). And unfortunately some of them won't have decent owners who will call them back. I think the advice already given is good - be boring, tell them to sit etc. Maybe carry a bag of treats so you can keep their attention until their owner gets to you. And of course don't be afraid to take defensive action if the situation warrants it - we sometimes take a walking stick with us if we're going to a strange area incase we meet any nasty dogs.

BTW I meant to say "walk their kids in one of the dozen dog free parks" not "walk their dogs", obviously

Have read the thread with interest and was going to add my opinion when I found MrsL123 had already said what I wanted to say, in a hugely polite and helpful manner.

I would add though, that I've always had dogs and currently have two dogs and had no idea the way non-dog owners felt about dogs until I found Mumsnet and read some of the vitriol about dogs written here. Since then I've been at pains to make sure my dogs never run up to people, especially children, unless positively invited over. DH on the other hand really doesn't see what the problem is, his view is that the dogs are only being friendly when they wander up to people, and will do no harm. So it really might be that some people just don't get the worry that a free-running bouncy dog can cause.

And the reason my labs do attempt to run up to people is that in their experience, 99% of the time they will get positive attention when they get there. They think I'm mad keeping them on leads if there is anyone around.

at the gs owner meg.I would be mortified if my dog knocked a child over. yes it would be exuberance/over friendliness etc but it's NOT NICE and falling over/being knocked over by a dog hurts and is scarey. I would have apologised profusely. yes i might have tried to reassure the child/parent that the dog's not aggressive but not in a way that implied there was no reason to be upset, iyswim. just think about if a human knocked a child over - by accident (which is essentially, usually what the dog has done). becasue they weren't looking, or were in a rush etc. all reasonable people would apologise. why does someone think they don;'t have to apologise on behalf of their dog.

also - can I say - thanks for acknowledging the "many" owners you notice who recall them/put them on leads etc. tehre are lots of us and it's very dis-heartenng to be tainted by the idiots (and sometime by the non-doggie people who seem to just not realise we're out here! )

now if this turns out to be a civilised dogs-behaving badly tghread taht will be a real achievement!

or even gr owner!

MrsL - interesting to hear the other side, and I do completely understand that sometimes dogs can do things you'd rather they didn't, that they've been trained not to and 9 times out of 10 you can control, as it is the exact same way with toddlers (although I maybe only have a 5 out of 10 hit rate with my DS) And I do then appreciate it if the dog owners do acknowledge that the dog shouldn't have done that.

I do find it interesting you say that there are 'doggy areas' though and that if I go there I should kind of be prepared to put up with this: I don't view areas as "dog-walking" or "family areas" - they're all just interesting places to go to us, and we all have the rights of access to them and should treat other people around us fairly and not assume that they like what we like etc. And while I appreciate people need to exercise their dogs off the lead, I need to exercise my child "off the lead" too , but I do my best to keep him out of the way of other people and scoop him up if he is likely to be a nuisance. So that is why I get upset if a dog comes right up to DS and jumps/circles etc. and the owner has made no attempt to call him back or divert his attention because that dog has approached us and invaded 'our' space so I shouldn't be the one to have to control my child by picking him up in that situation. I don't mind if they get fairly close (e.g. the splashing in the water), but letting a dog get right up into my DS's face without anyone trying to call the dog away is surely not on. I wouldn't mind so much if DS was a few years older, but he is tinier than most dogs and I just can't understand how it can be assumed that strangers, who clearly don't have a dog with them themselves, are likely to welcome that level of attention to their small child, so I don't quite get how owners can let the dog get that close without attempting to stop it IYSWIM.

In the same way, it is my duty to stop my DS getting too close to being in the way of anyone else (e.g. if he walked up to some family and started trying to eat their picnic or play with their toys without me having tried to stop him first, or check with them that it's okay, I'd say that's not on and I'm being a bad parent)

I will try the 'sit' and being boring techniques you and others suggest though - they are very helpful ideas. I won't be using treats though because a) DS will think they're a snack and start demaning them himself and b) I'm too scared of dogs to feed them myself anyway!

I can appreciate your feelings re: dogs jumping up etc - I love dogs and have a border collie pup but my family (my parents and siblings) never owned dogs and like you, just don't 'get' them. I like to think I'm a responsible owner and I always recall our dog - as she's still a pup, that's not always effective, so I usually keep her on an extension lead and pull her in when other people/dogs appear. My dog is the softest, most gentle dog you can hope for, but complete strangers don't know that so I'm very conscious of being considerate - I never let her jump up people, particularly small children.

However, please be careful that you don't pass on your fear to your DS. When a dog runs up, do you visibly tense up or even shout out? I don't need to tell you that, in this way, your DS will soon learn to react in a similar way, which makes a whole new problem for you! My DD (now 11) used to be terrified of other dogs - at the time we had a very old and slow dog which slept a lot - and her phobia got to the point where she refused to come out with us on walks even down the street in case a dog appeared. Even a dog on a lead would have her hysterical from the other end of the street! I'm glad to say that since having this pup (from April last year) DD's fear has vanished, from just being around a lively dog 24/7 and realising that most dogs are fine.

My younger DD (6) has never had a fear of dogs and always wants to make a fuss of every dog which comes along, but I have taught her to ask the owner first if it's ok to stroke the dog, and she always does this.

It's a difficult one and we all just want to be able to go for a nice walk, with or without a dog. We should try to have respect for one another in an ideal world.

OK, as an (excitable) lab owner and the parent of an (excitable) 20MO DS who loves dogs, I would suggest that the only way forward is one of compromise.

No parent can ensure that their child is ALWAYS within grabbing distance. DO NOT EXPECT A DOG OWNER TO DO SO IF YOU TAKE YOUR CHILD SOMEWHERE DOGS ARE LIKELY TO BE ALLOWED TO ROAM!!!!

DO NOT expect a dog to have better manners than your child.

DO teach your child not to approach unknown dogs (and yes, it IS possible)

DO NOT freak out if a friendly dog licks your child. It's not poison. If you can't cope with that, DO NOT take your child to that area.

and Missus84 I think you will find the police DO NOT tolerate threats of aggression. If you said that to me (get that I WOULD be with 20MO and a 6MO children too) I WOULD report you.

Most dogs ARE friendly and most dog owners ARE responsible.

threats of 'kicking the dog' are stupid and futile.

I totally and vehemently disagree with MrsL123. There should not be doggy areas all dogs should behave appropriately in all areas. We are fighting hard to stop dogs being banned from certain areas eg beaches etc and if we all allow our dogs to run up to people even if they do not want to this will happen more and more.

As a mum of a young child they should not have to search for safe areas to walk as if we with dogs have a right to walk where we want.

All dogs should learn to ignore people and other dogs unless invited or told it is ok by their owners or else they should be on a lead.

Minimu - I presume your child NEVER misbehaves. ever.

I presume Your child does what you say the MOMENT you tell it something...

I presume you feel your child is more intelligent that the average dog????????????

I sympathise with you.
My ds is very allergic to dog , the saliva cause angry weals/hives as soon as he is licked .
We had a dog when ds was born which we had to train not to lick ds , basically she only approached ds if she had permission and ds had to wash his hands if he touched her. ANyway we lost our lovely dog nearly a yr ago and ds is 7.
When I used to walk her with ds people could not understand why I didn't want their dogs approaching ds when we had a dog with us. Ds is wary of dogs he doesn't know becasue of his allergy.

He learnt to say no to dogs and turn his back. When he was small enough I used to divert the approaching dog away from ds to me which helped most of the time.

It is very difficult and I have been on the other side when out dog was young and still being trained.

I totally agree that it's not acceptable for someone to let their dog run riot around a small child (or anyone) without calling them back, but thankfully it sounds like they're in the minority. Unfortunately bad owners tend to raise bad dogs, so it's a double edge sword - those that don't call their dogs back are likely to have dogs that act inappropriately.

And I can understand where you're coming from with regards to not seeing an area as a 'doggy area', but what I was getting at is if you are nervous around dogs and this is happening frequently, it might be better for you to avoid those areas until your son is a bit older, to be better safe than sorry. I would never walk my dogs in an area that was full of children, so equally I don't understand why people take their children into an area that is full of dogs if they don't want to be around them - especially as there are only a handful of places I can walk my dogs, but there are lots of dog-free areas around here where people can take their children (that won't be full of dog dirt, as not everyone picks up after their pets, unfortunately). I realise that you might not have this clear separation where you live, so it is more difficult in that case. But short of picking your son up all the time, there isn't any way to avoid the risk of a dog hurting him, and you never know if a dog is friendly or not until it's too late. So personally I would be inclined to avoid the places where I knew lots of dogs would be off the lead, as this is the only way to truly minimise the risk. As a dog owner, I have to avoid places too - there are areas that I would love to walk but I know there are a lot of people riding bikes or on skateboards, and I know how much damage they can do to a dog if they collide. Some of these areas are lovely and I would like to use them (and it is my right to, if I wish), but it's not worth the worry because I know I'll be on edge wondering if a child is going to come out of nowhere on a bike and hit one of the dogs.

I know it can be a bit annoying and in a perfect world we would all share these areas and everyone would act perfectly - dogs, children, bikers, skateboarders etc would all be more considerate of others around them. But as things stand, there are really only two choices - either keep going to these places and accept that sometimes this is going to happen, or avoid the places altogether.

It's not just children vs dogs either - it extends to horses too. I lost count of the number of time I was riding along a certain bridle path (sometimes at a fast pace) and had to pull up because I was faced by a loose dog or people out for an afternoon stroll with their children. When I (politely) asked the owners to control their dogs or people to move off the path and walk elsewhere, I was shouted and sworn at and told they had more right to be there than my horse - even pointing out that it was a bridle path made no difference!

harimosmummy - that doesn't sound like compromise, that sounds like you are saying the onus is on me to do lots of things as i shouldn't expect anything from dog owners!

My child IS being taught not to approach an unknown dog (and other animals, and unknown people come to that) without me being there with him and/or checking with me or the owner first. maybe dogs should also be taught not to approach an unknown child without being in its owners' control (lead or by side) rather than often being allowed to bound up unchecked, then none of us would have an issue on either side? if i am expected to have control of my child, then i can bloody well expect that owners should have control of their dog. although i don't like dogs, i do not have an issue with dogs being close to me if they are well controlled (and i absolutely accept that doesn't have to mean on a lead, just like my DS can be controlled without being strapped into a buggy). i can almost accept it if the dog isn't controlled but then the owner apologises or makes amends - that's a mistake. if i fail as a parent i apologise - exact same thing. My problem is not all owners will apologise to me for their failures - they think it is my fault for being there or not liking dogs and that i should lighten up!

releasethehounds - i'm trying really hard not to pass on my fear. i move closer to DS but don't shout at him/dog/owner, and only move right up to DS if the dog is licking/jumping and try to sort of move between him and dog, or at least be available should he get knocked. It's really hard though as my instinct is just to grab DS and screech at the owner!

harimosmummy - that doesn't sound like compromise, that sounds like you are saying the onus is on me to do lots of things as i shouldn't expect anything from dog owners!

My child IS being taught not to approach an unknown dog (and other animals, and unknown people come to that) without me being there with him and/or checking with me or the owner first. Maybe owners should also train their dogs not to approach an unknown child without being in its owners' control (lead or by side) rather than often being allowed to bound up unchecked, then none of us would have an issue on either side? If i am expected to have control of my child, then i should be able to expect that owners have the same level of control of their dog.

Although i don't like dogs, i do not have an issue with dogs being close to me if they are well controlled (and i absolutely accept that doesn't have to mean on a lead, just like my DS can be controlled without being strapped into a buggy). Even if I don't like it, I can accept it if the dog isn't controlled but then the owner apologises or makes amends - that's a mistake. If i fail as a parent i apologise - exact same thing.

My problem is that not all owners will apologise to me for their failures - they think it is my fault for being there or for not liking dogs and that I should lighten up! But the dog is the aggressor/intruder here - I would react completely differently if DS and I had approached the dog to see it and DS then got knocked/licked/jumped on as we would then have effectively invited that as a potential consequence of the interaction. We do occasionally do this, and this has happened and then I have not said anything to the owner as I chose to put us in that situation. But most of the time I don't choose it, so I don't see why I should have to accept it!

releasethehounds - i'm trying really hard not to pass on my fear. i move closer to DS but don't shout at him/dog/owner, and only move right up to DS if the dog is licking/jumping and try to sort of move between him and dog, or at least be available should he get knocked. It's really hard though as my instinct is just to grab DS and screech at the owner!

oh i seem to have posted before i'd finished editing! sorry!

"All dogs should learn to ignore people and other dogs unless invited or told it is ok by their owners or else they should be on a lead"

Maybe, but realistically is this ever going to happen? I don't think so, which is why I think the only realistic option is to avoid the areas you know are a danger. I should be able to walk through town at night without the risk of being mugged or abused by a hoard of hoodies, but that's not going to happen either. So I just don't walk through town at night. That doesn't make it right, it's just the way things are.

Absolutely not!!! Just don't expect MORE from the dog than you can expect from your child (so... if your child comes back THE FIRST TIME you call it... then sure, expect that from dogs... most of us can't!... I know I have MUCH more control of my dog than I do of my 20 MO old.)

As I said, I have a labrador as well as a 20MO... so I see it from both sides. At least 50% of times I see dog owners BOUNDING over to try to rescue their dog from my DS

Believe me, I've seen more times when I have to reove my child from the dog than my dog from a child and I've had more words with parents who seem to think it's acceptable for 'little Johnny' to stick something in my dog's face than I've ever had with another parent having to ask me to remove my dog

(sorry, not saying you are the mother of 'little johnny' - but they DO exist!!!)

MrsL - the hills are the South Downs way so a) totally beautiful and the whole reason we moved here and b) open access to anyone so not really "doggy". So I won't stop going there because of this, and think owners here should be particularly aware of the situation. I accept we might need to get to know the beaches better in case some are particularly doggy - the one yesterday was a new one and did seem quite doggy to us. Shame, as it was gorgeous!

Re horses on bridleways - I sympathise as I used to be a London cyclist dodging pedestrians straying into clearly marked designated cycle lane!