Is there anything I can do to discourage dogs from jumping up at / sniffing around my DS?

[megonthemoon]

I was going to post in AIBU, but I know that wouldn't achieve anything so wanted to come to Pets to see if there was any practical advice/suggestions?

We go out walking on the beach/hills a lot with DS (22mo, fairly small for his age). These are places where people tend to have their dogs off leads, and the dogs always seem super interested in DS, I guess as he is small. Although many owners call their dogs back and get a response and/or put them on leads when they see us near (yay to them!), many do not and I am getting a bit scared/annoyed and don't know what to do.

I am not a dog fan at all - quite scared of them really - but DS doesn't seem too fazed yet and I don't want to pass on my fears to him. However this weekend he has been a) knocked over by a lab, b) been licked in the face by a jumping Jack Russell, c) been sniffed at and circled by 2 or 3 different dogs and d) been loudly barked at by a bounding dog (although this dog didn't come up too close).

Shouting at the owners is futile I've found - they just say "oh he's being friendly" or "oh sorry" or try to call the dog back but don't really persist in gaining control - I just think this is crap behaviour of owners personally but I don't want to get into a blazing row. Is there anything I can do to discourage dogs coming near to DS, or to prevent them jumping up? I don't want to have to run over to DS every time I spy a dog, and nor do I want to have to keep picking him up. And I am petrified if one of these dogs turns violent if DS inadvertently does something to provoke them.

Any tips on what I should do?

South Downs... You aren't too far from me, I don't think..

if you are up somewhere like Ashridge, then YES, I'm afraid you either need to lighten up where dogs / animals come into the equation or not go there.

I am a total fuss pot about my dog - he is NOT allowed out of my sight and I do get a bit upset when I see dogs chasing deer etc., but you can't change the world.

I look after my dog (and DS and DD) and we have a great time up there.

If you are about the South Downs, have you considered joining Whipsnade / Woburn?

You would have a lovely outdoor area and NO dogs?? It's not expensive (just an idea!)

I take the kids to Whipsnade all the time and it's wonderful!!

HM

MrsL - I know that's not realistic, but I try to be an idealist sometimes

harimosmummy - no, I don't have huge amounts of control over my toddler (it's a work in progress...), but he is generally not the 'aggressor' in situations like this whereas the dog is. DS is minding his own business and gets licked/jumped/knocked by something much bigger than him. I would be mortified if he did something like that to an animal/person, as it would mean I had let him get too close and out of my control. And I do adjust the level of control I have over his actions depending on the situation, so that I can avoid such things as much as possible. So for example I keep him very close if we are with newborn babies who are smaller than him, so that I can minimise the hurt he might inadvertently cause them.

And if we ever approach a dog (rare given my feelings, but I do try!) then I'm very careful about what he does to the dog (stroking and looking only - no prodding, poking, and certainly no licking or jumping up )

Just wish every parent and dog owner was like us, eh

This is really interesting for me, thank you I will try to be a little more charitable to dog owners in future! I'm off to watch Sky+ 24 now, but will be back later/tomorrow

And, NO, I don't have a GCSE in Geography.

Ahhh meg I see, in that case it is more difficult, as there are probably no specific areas that you can class as 'doggy'. I thought you were always walking in the same areas IYSWIM. If you do a google search there are a few sites for dog owners that specify which beaches dogs are allowed on in Devon and Cornwall (as these tend to be the strictest areas) - so you could use this as a 'places to avoid' list.

Re people not apologising over their dogs behaviour - this is just people, I'm afraid. They're probably the same people that don't apologise when they bump into someone or barge in front of you in the queue - just plain ignorant! I find the OAPs to be the worst - they never clean up after their dogs and usually have the snappiest, yappiest little dogs who are aggressive to everyone. When our puppy was 4 months old, a horrible mongrel came running over, flipped her onto her back and pinned her down by her throat. I managed to get hold of it and when the owner (old woman) finally arrived and I gave her a mouthful about controlling her dog, she said "why are you so worried, these little terrier types can look after themselves" Even when I pointed out she was not a terrier but a 16 week old labrador, she still didn't care! Grrr

I must say - if a child ASKS to stroke my dog, I will always say 'Im going to hold his nose - not because he's aggressive, but he will want to kiss you and I am not sure you would like that' (because he would!) but, at the same time, if my dog gets inadvertantly licked by another dog - it happens (of course, we spend a lot of time around other dogs), well, just don't freak out. It's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world either.

i don't think the whole 'instant recall' is acceptable. Not unless parents are happy to tether their children if they suffer a similar 'selective deafness'.

As I said (though the area was wrong!) there are places such as whipsnade that you can go where there will be no dogs.

Even though I am an ardent dog lover, I do walk a little easier knowing that my son (should he take one of his quite regular head plants) won't end up with a face full of dog shit!!

MrsL123 - I have a similar story to you... my (then) puppy was attacked by a horrible dog when we were on holiday in Norfolk.... After MONTHS of tellling my DSDS that they MUST NEVER intervene in a dog fight, the minute I saw my dog roll over, I thought 'Bite my dog and I'm in a panic over trying to find a vets and then pay the bill... bite me, and I call the cops..'

Stuck my hand in and dragged the dog off mine... I handed it back to it's owner to deal with. She had that dog out of my sight in no time....

Of course, I mean if my CHILD gets licked by another dog

"MrsL - doggy places? There aren't any. You mean public parks? As for saying your dog 'has been known to knock smaller kids down by accident with her tail (and then kiss them!)' make her stop. Put your dog on a lead whenever there are children around until you have her properly trained. You are not mortified enough if you need to say this is 'always' how you feel!"

It has only happened when children are actually playing with her and she gets excited - she's never run up to a child uninvited and knocked them down. But if a small child (and their parents) have called her over and are petting her and making a fuss of her, she gets excited and will swing her bum round, and sometimes she bumps into people. If it's a child, they fall over. I still apologise, even though she doesn't do it on purpose - just as I would apologise if I'd knocked the child over. But she is not out of control and it has nothing to do with her training. She has been on the lead most of the time lately as she has ED, so she doesn't run wild, and she knocked a child over a couple of weeks ago while she was on the lead getting fussed over. It's not like she jumps on them and pins them to the floor.

And re the doggy areas - I didn't say 'dog only parks', I said 'doggy areas' - i.e. areas where there are lots of dogs. Just like their are horsey places and bike places - I think most people know what areas are popular with dogs and which aren't. It's easy to say things shouldn't be this way or everyone should act this way, but realistically it's not going to happen, is it?

I would be pissed off if your dog licked my child

I can't abide animals tbh and don't want your dog licking my childs face after licking his own nuts and sticking his nose in other dogs arses

No matter how 'friendly' you think it is

We had to put in a lot of work after DD got knocked over by a dog when she was small to stop her freaking out everytime we saw or were approached by a dog.

And I do expect your dog to be better behaved than my child, no my child might not come back when I call them first time but they are not about to run up to you and push your child over and lick their germs all over your face are they?

harimosmummy - yes, I'm sure the police will be really interested that someone threatened your out of control dog

A threat of violence might just make the "he's only being friendly" idiots suddenly realise they can attempt to control their animals after all.

If you can't control your dog - you don't let it off the lead. Easy.

I don't think it's a case of dog owners believing in doggy areas, as such. Some areas are just doggy - I know several areas around here which are only used for walking dogs and nothing else - not because they've been designated as such, just that they've always been this way. Mostly because nobody else would want to walk there - I wouldn't want to take a child to an empty field (which is probably full of sh*t) when I could take them to the dog-free playpark down the road instead. Even I don't want to walk in the doggy areas sometimes - why people don't pick up after their dogs is beyond me. I once saw a man on the beach cover up his dogs poo with sand, which a) took longer than it would have to pick it up, and b) meant the next unsuspecting person would stand in it

But I think in a world where people find it difficult to apply basic manners (and the law) to each other, we're a long way from them applying them to their dogs. It's unfortunate, but luckily most people don't let their dogs run riot or poo everywhere or attack other dogs (or have the good grace to apologise if they do).

"A threat of violence might just make the "he's only being friendly" idiots suddenly realise they can attempt to control their animals after all"

Or might make the owner be violent to you in return.

My DH once had 'words' with some idiot who lives near us and owns two out-of-control and aggressive huskies - even on the lead, he can't control them, and we often see him being pulled all over the place by them. Our older dog was on the lead, walking to heel, when one of them launched at her and bit her. When my DH threatened to report him to the police, the owner swore at him and said if he did, he'd come round and stab our dog. Not to mention the people who have vicious dogs and threaten to 'set them on you' when you complain about them being out of control.

So I don't think threats of violence helps anyone, really - espccially if you have a small child with you.

I was quite scared of dogs after my brother was bitten by a German Shepherd as child. I've made sure my fear hasn't been on and made sure neither of my children have ever gone to stroke a dog without asking permission from the owner first. I definitely managed not to pass my fear to the DC's and have recently caved to years of them wanting a dog and we have a 8 month pup who is lab size and is generally described as excitable.

We have woods round the corner which are full of dog walkers. Before we got ddog I expected not to be approached by off lead dogs so I make sure mine doesn't approach people, she spends a fair bit of time on a long line at the moment. She has to either sit for people or ignore them, depending what I tell her. If people do want to stroke I warn them she might try to jump, though I can usually get her to keep her paws on the floor these days and am careful to not let nervous looking toddlers have a stroke in case she belts them her wagging tail. They get told she is learning doggy manners so we'll leave the stroking on that occasion if they don't mind.

To threaten to harm a dog as described has got to be a foolish idea. I'll add the disclaimer first - my dogs have extremely good recall and besides I always lead them up if I see children on the horizon. However, if anyone was to threaten my dogs (and people have, memorably 3 adults on a towpath, when my dogs were off-lead, walking to heel past them and ignoring them), I would (and did) react simililarly. Do it to a big, stroppy man and you're in danger, no matter who is right or wrong.

I too tend to avoid areas where there are likely to be lots of non-dogwalkers and/or children. I might like to have the opportunity to use these places but common sense dictates that if I don't want to meet idiots like the ones described above, I don't want kids touching my dogs before asking or pulling them about, and I don't want my Lab getting assy with children who do these things (my GSD would want to play, my Lab doesn't much like most children), but I stay away. If I went there and got my dog poked with a stick I'd be partially to blame, as far as I see it.

The advice to err on the side of less dog-friendly areas isn't given on the basis of "You're not welcome, it's OUR place!", but on the basis that unfortunately not all dogs ARE as well behaved as you'd like and not all owners as responsible, so it's in part down to you to take that into account. Yes, you SHOULD have the right to walk where you like unmolested, and I SHOULD have the right to walk through Brixton at 1am but I'm buggered if I would as I know that on balance it's not safe or wise to do so.

When you meet a dog which is charging towards you, don't run, stand still. A positive, confident stance, not looking him in the eye (which is a challenge) and firm voice command will often work... but of course, like children, there is no guarantee. Thats just the best advice I can think of.

NB I should point out that the three 30 to 40 yo adults who threatened my dogs with no provocation or good reasn were threatened similarly by me... I didn't threaten their dog, they didn't have one, and wouldn't have even if they did.

If they'd have carried out their threats I would have had all 3 of them in the bloody river though, despite being only 5 foot 4!

I think the issue of uncontrolled and/or aggressive dogs is an issue for everyone - other dog owners included. When you have a young puppy with you, you're probably just as on-edge and wary of other dogs as when you have a small child with you. So it's not just non-doggy people that feel that way, and I'm sure we can all understand it. Nobody - whether a child is with them or not - should have to put up with unwanted attention from other people's dogs (nor should people's dogs have to put up with unwanted attention from other people's children, just to balance things out )

From an owner's perspective, it does suprise me the number of dogs that don't have good recall, simply for their own safety. Our older dog (will be 3 in June) is only on a lead when she goes to the vets - she walks to heel without her lead, never runs too far away, and will sit at 100m if you shout it loud enough - and has done since she was very young. She sits before crossing the road and we never have to shout her more than once - even if she's chasing a rabbit or something equally as exciting, she always comes back. But quite often a dog will run up to us and won't return to its owners, so we end up grabbing hold of it and waiting for its owners to come to us (mostly because we know how frustrating it is chasing after a wayward dog!). Regardless of the children situation - I just don't know how they manage to walk near roads or cycle paths or bridle paths without their dogs getting hurt. But maybe people aren't as paranoid as me about their dog getting squished

There are doggy and non-doggy places to walk, but so many of the people walking their dogs have young children with them too that the dogs must learn to behave around little children. Owners who haven't understood that are being negligent.

But, if I hated dogs and didn't have one I would look for non-dog places for most of my walks, if there were any such places nearby.

I have to say that I'm always surprised by these threads at how much trouble people seem to have with dogs. My eldest child is nearly 8, and there has only been one occasion ever where a dog has bounded up to one of my kids and frightened him. Unfortunately it was massive and it bit him, though as it was winter and he had a padded jacket on it didn't do any damage. But still, one dog ever in all the zillions of times we've been to parks wouldn't make me think this kind of thing was such a problem.

I guess the thing is that if you like dogs and one comes bounding over, you'd be likely to call out to it, and so it would come to you and not your child, and the problem probably wouldn't occur. We walk our pup off leash in the local dog walking spot, and have pretty much only ever met other dog walkers (never small children - it's very rough ground). He is learning recall, and is pretty good now, but he does love people, mainly because everyone he meets at least appears to love him. I think he must think his real name is "cute"

I did use to find it very sad as a teenager walking our old family dog (a slight, gentle and beautiful border collie) that some parents really freaked out when he approached their children in the park with his ball (not at any speed or with any jumping up, usually he'd get nearish and then lie down nearby and nudge his ball in their direction and then look very very hopeful) even though their children were usually smiling and obviously pleased to see him. He was a very obedient dog though, so it was never a problem to call him back. After a while he learned that the best targets for a bit of ball throwing were OAPs sitting on benches, and totally ignored children.

But then again as a mother of course I am cautious, because some dogs really don't like children, and so of course you have to be careful. I just suspect that if you have a friendly, wouldn't say boo sort of dog that everyone generally loves, it is hard to understand that (s)he could still frighten someone.

hariomomum I have 5 children and yes they do misbehave but I was talking about my dogs!!!!!!!!!!! Who do not run up to people and are yes always 100% under my control. Either way my DC do not run up to or chase dogs they have been taught how to behave as have my dogs.

This thread is worrying me as a behaviourist I am often called to discuss dog behaviour and actions in court cases. All dogs should be under control at all times and it appears that a dog "knocking over a kid and then giving it a kiss" is acceptable. It is not.

If you do not have perfect recall your dog should be on a lead around people.

Dangerous dogs act does not only cover the action but if the action of the dog appears threatening. A dog jumping on a young child can easily be seen as threatening.

Even the OP has said herself that if she invited attention from a dog, she accepts that her child may get hit with a tail / knocked down / licked on the face, especially if the dog is young or excited. That doesn't make the person a bad owner any more than it makes the mother a bad parent.

I think this is in danger of becoming an AIBU / owner bashing thread actually.

The OP came on here specifically to ask practical advice on how to stop dogs jumping up at her son - that has been given several times so far as I can see.

If the OP had said "we frequently walk over farmers fields, how can I stop my son getting attacked by a sheep" we wouldn't be giving her livestock advice or bashing the farmers that keep said 'vicious' sheep, we would be telling her not to walk through farmers fields if she perceives them to be a danger.

If the OP had said "we frequently walk on cliff tops, how can I stop my son from falling over the edge", we would't be giving her advice on bungee lines or preaching that cliffs should be fenced off, we would be telling her to stay away from the cliffs.

And if the OP had said "we frequently walk through town at night, how can I stop someone mugging me", we wouldn't be giving her advice on self-defence moves or moaning about how there should be more police on the streets, we'd be telling her to stick to safer areas.

I'm not sure what the difference is in this case. Yes in a perfect world no dog would ever be even slightly out of control (or heaven for bid lick a child that is playing with it - shock horror ) but I don't see how moaning about how people should and shouldn't behave is going to help the OP more than the practical suggestions that have already been given on page 1 of this thread.

Maybe this thread would have been better on AIBU afterall, it seems to be going in that direction.

It is only turning into an AIBU thread because people with dogs (yes As you know I am a dog owner) are refusing to take responsibility for their dogs.

Farmers are not allowed to keep vicious animals on footpaths

Comparing mugging to walking with dogs is just mad. Walking dogs should not be a criminal activity!!! If you can't see the difference I rest my case!

We as dog owners need to take responsibility for out dogs to ensure that they do not impact on anyone else in society. So pick up poo, train them not to bark, and to keep them under control in public places. Surely that can not be disputed.

It's like anything really - it's the few who give a very bad name to the many. I've no doubt that, of the people whose dogs have done this, most did not mean any harm. In the real world, not all dogs are well behaved and have perfect recall and not everyone realises how terrifying it can be to be approached by a dog if you're not a dog lover. I'm not saying it's right, but the world is not full of responsible dog owners and perfectly trained dogs. Don't even get me started on poo picking, or the people who poo pick then leave the fecking bags lying around!!!!!

MrsL - you're right, this is turning into AIBU

Hats off to the OP for looking for practical tips.

My practical tip (like most people) is fold your arms in and turn away. Give the dog no attention at all - even shouting at it could be misconstrued by the dog as your being terribly excited to see it, and make it worse. Yes, I'd pick a small dc up out of the way too.

Best of luck OP

But minimu nobody was disputing that. We've all said that some owners are not in proper control of their dogs and agreed that it is not right for a child (or anyone) to be pestered if they don't want to be. But the OP asked for practical advice, which has been given (turn away, be boring, but if you're still worried about your son's safety, avoid the areas altogether). So everyone starting to go on about dog laws and what owners should be doing is not helping anyone - the OP is not going to dish out dog training advice to every bad owner she comes across, nor is every bad dog owner in the world going to read this thread and suddenly change their ways. And I hardly compared dog walking to a criminal activity, you've taken it completely out of context. Walking near a cliff isn't a criminal activity either, yet strangely you left that example out . I was taking about giving practical advice vs turning the thread into a heated discussion on all that is wrong with the world of dog ownership - which is more helpful to the OP?

I think suggesting that a person who is a) afraid of dogs and b) is concerned about their small child should avoid very doggy areas is an immensely practical piece of advice, which is what was asked for at the very start of this thread.

I don't want dogs licking me or my kids, i don't want them jumping on me or getting hair on my clothes.

So i have come up with a slightly dishonest strategy which is very effective. When i get bounding dogs rushing to me while their owners shout 'don't worry he is just being friendly' as it is clear im trying to move out of its path, i say 'i just dont want it touching me' and then when they get all eyes rolling and start telling me how friendly said beast is, i exaggearate and say that i cant get dog hair on my clothes as we have 'allergies in the family' suddenly they actually get their hands out of their pockets and grab the dog. Its a pity they never show any courtesy and do that before.

To repay the favour i never let my children irritate people either in public either, and if they ever do accidently bump into someone I immediately apologise for them and reprimand them. I dont get all eyes rolling about the fact that people might not like kids.