Am I entitled to my money back for a puppy I can't keep?

[cordonbleugh]

basically, I have a puppy I can't keep, he is 13 weeks old, and has done exeptionally well with training etc, knows quite a few commands already, is very clever etc, apart from one issue - the biting, it's not just normal biting and rough play, but is actually very agressive.

Before you say anything, I have tried EVERYTHING to train him out of this, no techniques work, and when his agression is directed at my 3yo DD, I just cant take the risk that he will grow out of it.

It's not fair on her, DD can't be a normal 3yo, do anything she norally does for fear of getting attacked!

So, the breeder has agreed to have him back, but says she has no money to refund to me!

I'm assuming that she used the money for the sale of the puppies to pay off a large debt, because 8 puppies at £250 each is a lot of money!!

He is not purebred by the way, so he is not kennel club registered or anything like that.

I have asked her to have him back asap, otherwise he will go to dogs trust or somewhere similar, but now she is getting a bit nasty towards me (via text!) about the whole situation.

I made a mistake in getting the puppy and fully admit to that, now i just want him gone before he hurts DD again. I did a LOT of research, and waited months before getting him btw, so it was definately not and impulse decision, it just hasn't worked out

Anyone got any advice?

Not you I am "directing my aggro" at Bella, apologies if it came across that way. Its the "experts" I despair of.

I still maintain that the practical experience of the types of people I have mentioned imho outweighs and disproves the current trend for anti-dominance theorism.

I guess we must just agree to differ.

Just to be totally clear, I was referring to the golden retriever pup that Sophable is getting. I say that in my post.

Don't worry, Vallhala - I'll stay out of your way in future.

Once bitten, as they say.

I'm sorry but I'm having a quiet giggle at the 'experts' falling out

I admire your passion tho'

Gawd.. I may be wrong, but I think I'm right in saying that when Valhalla referred to experts she was talking about people who write papers on dog behaviour and dominance behaviours without actually ever being at the coal face - i.e. doing all you can to rehabilitate a dog before they get the needle?? Well used dominance can saves dog's lives. (Our GD/GSD would never have lived to a ripe old age of 14 without it)

..and BBJ thought "expert's" was a snide referral to her, which is wasn't??

..and now sootysox thinks everyone in the arguement thinks they are experts??

Just wanted to clear that up because I used the word experts first, as in everyone is one, innit? Now who wants a belly rub?

I'll have that belly rub now Lotster,

Having quickly read through the article that Bella linked, it did say things that made sense to me - especially the part about the top dog not needing to growl/threaten, and the underdog not daring to, but the dog in the middle of the heirachy trying to have some dominance over someone. My apologies if I have paraphrased this incorrectly, but that was my understanding of what was said.

My pup 'answers back', barks and growls at us when she doesn't get her way, and my dh has been pinning her down, as he says, to show her that he is top dog, not her. Obviously I need to do some more reading up, as I am worried now that this is the wrong thing to do.

We are very committed to raising a polite, friendly, fun and happy dog, and I really want to get this right.

And I am so glad that CordonBleugh has a happy ending to her pup's story - it sounds as if she and Valhalla have found an ideal situation for the puppy who will go on to have a long and happy life.

CB - I hope that everything settles down with the breeder - as others have said she is clearly a loon who is just in it for the money. If I were you, I'd go and have a chat with the citizens advice bureau, just to set your mind at rest. Or perhaps the Kennel Club could advise on this - they might have more specialist knowledge regarding dog ownership and the rights of the owners and breeders.

Lotster - my brown lab puppy says 'Yes please' to the tummy rub!

Ok you two, cmere!! whoooose a god dog/sooty, is it you? yes it is! ...

yep, lost it. Beter go and do something useful

Just so nobody misunderstands, I have no illusions whatsoever about being an expert.

What I am getting sick and tired of, tbh, is a huge emotional rant from Vallhala every time I say something she disagrees with. It really isn't on.

All I do when I come on here is try to help people with their dogs, and in this instance I was trying to help someone who is getting a golden retriever pup. If any of you look at my posting history you'll see that is, quite literally, all I do on MN.

People who work with dogs tend to be quite pasionate about them, yes and - like anything - there are conflicting schools of thought. But no-one deserves the big rants I've had.

Over and out.

Stayingsunny - I suggest you seek Minimu's advice.

FWIW Valhalla, I think you really need to look again at what is being said here re pack/dominance theory.

You are saying that the experts handlers you know who use it find it works, which is great, however.... in this instance it is not an expert handler being advised to use it, it is a noviced dog owner with little back up and support (or an experienced day to day kind).

This is akin to saying to someone, of you have ridden a moped, why don't you nip my 18 wheeler around the block, and then being surprised when it goes wrong. You are not delaing with experienced experts here, you are dealing with lay people.

People without a good leve of expertese pinning dogs, assessing puppies, putting dogs "in their place" and so on can end upin big troube, can create a dangerous dog - who people like you then have to "fix" hopefully, unless it is already too late and the damage is too far gone (or you don't get to them in time).

If an experienced hadler has found a method that works, great, but don't expect an inexperienced hander to make it work too, they simply are not equiped and it is irresponsible to suggest otherwise.

calm down calm down ladies! Christ, i thought this thread was about having a go at ME! not each other

@ CB

Think I'll go back to cats ..............

Here, have a biscuit but NO FIGHTING over it!

I am not cross, or having a go, just pointing out that there is a difference between people who deal with dogs for a living or vocation and those who have the odd pet or two.

What seems simple to one may well be rocket science to another and I do feel that giving a short description of a technique on the internet can cause problems because you are not there to monitor how that is put to use.

It really can be an "enough knowledge to be dangerous" thing and lots of dogs are made worse in some way by people using inappropriate or incorrect techniques simply because they did not fully understand. A fact I am sure Valhalla and other rescue workers will support.

Depends what kind of it is tho jasper! if its a milk chocolate hobnob, ITS MINE!!! lol

completely agree SarahSon

Now, which of these outfits is most appropriate for my court appearance....

this

or this

CB sorry for the huge thread hijack.

it's been very interesting. FWIW, I've been reading Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson who are both advocates of a strictly behavioural lure and reward training style. They both strongly disapprove of dominance theory as it relates to training methods.

Reward training (like positive parenting) feels like a style that suits me, however, i'm well aware that reading a book is a million miles away from the reality of a new pack member who will (hopefully) be with us for many years.

I like what they both say about thinking like a dog, that there is no 'naughtiness' but only dog behaviour and that it is up to us to show a dog, through reward the ways in which it can best live in our pack.

he is very hardcore about kong stuffing, socialisation, and house training but think he feels the need to be, he repeats over and over that unless dogs are raised not to bite, chew things that shouldn't be and be politely behaved with other dogs, children and adults they often end up being put down. he seems to come from a very rescue orientated place iyswim.

the slightly sad thing is that all i'm in touch with at the moment is how hard it's going to be and what a huge responsibility i'm taking on...not really excited at all!!!

better that way round perhaps?

i should correct that actually. he argues that puppies must bite over and over in order to learn bite inhibition!

this is interesting on dunbar vs millan

That's really interesting, Sophable. And thanks for the link which I have book-marked.

My 6 month old Lhasa Apso is gorgeous, but must say that despite giving it a lot of thought before I got him, I didn't realise how tough it was with loo training/continuous monitoring and supervision.

I got Digby at 14 weeks and it is getting easier and I am getting wiser

There have been times when I have been at the end of my tether, but thankfully these have passed and I am beginning to see the wood for the trees.

It is a huge responsibility and I have been/am a worry wart as regards his care and welfare - doing the 'right' thing re training etc.....
I agree with the reward techniques of training. Getting to know your puppy, his personality etc......and finding a balance re firm but kind, loving management, and having a companion/member of the family.

Just to explain - I am NO expert I just, as has been said, am passionate about what I do. I'm not always right either, and am genuinely sorry for offending you Bella. I'm not trying to point-score or to put your knowledge or experience down. Lotster is right, its the experts at their desks, not those at ground level (like you Bella) I was disagreeing with. On the contrary, I admire those who do as you do.

It would take forever to explain why I feel as I do. I must say I would never recommend pinning etc, thats not the dominance theory I was talking of, all far too advanced and untried by me, not my style or in my league. One for the on the ground experts in the world of dog rescue/training/behaviouralism, perhaps.

I just speak as someone in a fairly unusual position as although I'm independent of any organisation the one I work most closely with takes the dogs which most won't including aggressive, epileptic etc. I see there how it works. As well as 50-odd dogs in their kennels, they manage to have 15 dogs or more mixing happily in one part of the house and a pack of 8 or so in another, some of whom are formerly dog-aggressive, because in my humble opinion and I believe that of the owner too, each knows his place via firmness but kindness and knows that they don't have to get stroppy to defend themselves or to get the food/attention etc they need because they trust the owner to be in charge iyswim. Its hard to explain without taking hours and reams...

Regardless, if it is kind and it works, then thats great by me.

Again, Bella, my heartfelt and sincere apologies.

On another note, CB, did it all go okay today hun? Not heard from M and G yet, hope all went well.

Theyre coming tomorrow vsll, should be here about 1:30, fingers crossed!

Vallhala, I could be wrong but I strongly believe that the situation you describe with the rescue dogs will have little or nothing at all to do with employing dominance theory but everything to do with being in the company of a person who treats the dogs fairly, firmly and consistantly.

Dogs like to know and understand the rules and get easily confused and mislead by people who do not realise how their actions are read by an animal. Being around someone who does know that, even if it is instinctivly rather than conciously IYSWIM will do almost any dog the power of good and, IMHO is why Millan gets some good results, nothing to do with "showing their place" and everything to do with being concious of the effect you have on an animal and sticking with a course of action.

It is,largly, because of the results CM occcasionally gets that people are fooled into thinking that pack theory works, perhaps he even believes it, but it is really (again, IMHO) nothing more than fair treatment. If you watch almost any of his cases they are dealing with dogs who have not been treated properly in the first place, either being pampered or owners being scared of them or not being walked etc etc. If you remove that confusion from the dog and replace it with calm, simple rules they are bound to respond!

Oh, CB, sorry for the hijack! Great news that it is all going well

(oh and the advice here about the loon breeder is quite right INO, she does not have a leg to stand on and is most likely just sounding off!)

Good news CB, and good luck

CB d'oh! I'm sorry, I'm losing track of the days! Its been a long, demanding and cruddy week.

Sarah, you're right - I wasn't speaking of "dominance theory" in the strictest, clearly (now, blush again, I realise) most commonly understood way. I was speaking of basic techniques employed by behaviouralists and those in rescue etc across the country. What I see and where it works is the consistant theory of "I'm here, I'm strong, I'm no pushover but I'm not going to hurt you or act the hard (wo)man, you can trust me because I am consistant, won't let you down and you don't need to show those teeth to feel safe or get fed".