I'm despairing of EVER night training my puppy!!!! Sorry - this is long!

[mum2seb]

I have a 5 month old Lakeland Terrier who is a smashing little pup - I really can't fault his temperament, and he is pretty much housetrained during the day now. He VERY rarely has an accident, and if he does, it's usually because we have missed the signs - he'll sit by the back door (and he doesn't bark to be let out - just waits quietly, bless him, and in my house with 2 very noisy boys, he could well do with being a bit noisier about it!!), or I'm out (which happens very rarely without him during the holidays).
But this morning my dh has come down to yet another filthy cage.
We have a crate, and we did put him in it as a very young puppy, but he got very distressed and messed all over the inside of it, so we now leave the crate door open and have a pen around the outside. I put newspaper down inside the pen (which I've read is the wrong thing to do, and I should use puppy pads, but the cost is rather prohibitive for me). He poos inside the pen every night. I reckon he must be doing one in the middle of the night (12 - 2 ish), and one before I come down in the morning (and it doesn't seem to matter how early I come down, he's always done it before I come down!!).
He whines during the night, too - and thinking that it must be when he needs to go to the loo, I HAD come down to let him out (but the veterinary nurse told me I shouldn't, so I've stopped now). He didn't go, anyway to be honest. His whining and barking got so bad that we have resorted to putting him in the conservatory - which is only a short term solution - he can't stay out there in the winter.
I'm really at a dead loss as to what we should do - I had a chat with the veterinary nurse the last time we went to get his worming tablets (last week), and she had said she was going to get some advice for me, but she hasn't got back to me yet (I think I'm going to have to phone her). I've had it drilled in to me that I shouldn't go to him when he's whining, that it reinforces the behaviour, but I"m wondering if that is the right way of doing it. But at the same time, I don't want to set myself up for a disaster. I want to get this sorted soon - he's 5 months old now, and I don't want this to be even more difficult to solve with an adult dog!!

ANY advice would be gratefully received. TIA.

What do you feed him, how much/often do you feed him, and what time is his last feed at night?

I feed him Eukanuba small breed puppy, and as per the instructions, so that's 145g of it in total, split into 2 meals at 7am and 6pm. I rarely give him anything to eat during the day - perhaps a kong if I'm going out (to occupy him) or a pig's ear (yuck!!) on rare occasions. He often doesn't eat all of his food as well - just doesn't seem terribly fussed by it!

Thanks, bella, by the way - was hoping either you or King would be on here!!

I feed 3 meals a day until 6 months - if only because their stomachs are so tiny. He may be struggling to eat 75 g of food in one go - that's quite a lot for a small pup. Give him 3 meals a day and make sure he has plenty of time in the garden last thing at night, so he has plenty of opportunity to poo.

Also, what time does he get put to bed and what time are you getting him up?

We go up at 10.30 - 11pm, so take him out before we go out, and he usually goes for a pee. We get up at 6.30. Maybe I'm expecting too much from him?

Will have a go at the 3 meals a day. I had been doing that, and the vet nurse told me to cut it down to 2 meals when he was about 4 months (which I did think was odd, but he wasn't eating hardly any of his food, so I thought I'd give it a go! He does eat more of it now than he did, but I suppose it's possible he would've anyway, and it was all a phase!).

we have a five month old cocker spaniel and we feed him on Salters,he has his last meal (of three) at 7pm and usually poos pretty much straaight after that,he sometimes goes again before we go to bed at about 11pm,so it does seem possible fro a pupy f this age to last through as he never gets us up in the night and doesn't mess in crate.I was advised to put him in the crate and shut the door as he wouldn't mess his bed,if we leave him during the day he has his crate inside his pen with the dor of the crate open but we have never found anything in the crate.

Do you think that it is actually separation anxiety rather then needing to go,if you see what I mean?

Yes, I think it could well be - but what am I supposed to do?!!!!

I am not sure ,you probably need Bella!the Gwen Bailey book,which I have found quite useful ,recommends leaving them for gradually longer periods starting with less than a minute and gradually moving up but I could see that this would be difficult in the night.Does he mess in the pen if you leave him to go out in the day,also have you tried shutting the crate door at night and not leaving him with an area to mess in?

Oh god, please don't make me do that all night!!!!!

He sometimes messes in the pen in the day if I go out, but 9 times out of 10, he wont. I tried shutting the door on the crate when he was younger, and he COMPLETELY freaked out, so I'm a little reluctant to do it again. I've NEVER seen a mess like it (sheltered life, perhaps?!!).

Mines 5 mths and sometimes messes. We got a cat flap which solved the problem but then he started going outside barking! 5 mths is still young so dont worry.

I don't think it's separation anxiety - I suspect more a combination of his feeding routine and not getting the chance to empty his bowels before bedtime. If you feed 3 meals a day then his rhythm should change and you'll have a lot more chance of him being clean at night. Going through the night without pooing (and weeing) is perfectly feasible at this age.

Make sure he gets lots of time outside, with you by his side, and praise like mad when he does a poo outside (give a small food treat too). They soon get the idea. They'll often wee almost immediately on going outside but poos can take a lot more sniffing round

Thank you, I'll give all of that a go, and get back to you all.

Good luck & keep us posted