Labour’s plans for VAT on Private Schools

[Busydadof2]

The Labour Party has proposed introduction of VAT on private schools.

In the scheme of things the money they will bring in from this is tiny compared with total expenditure on state schools, while it will drive more burden on the state system as some parents leave private schools. I think this is a populist ploy to get traditional Labour voters to vote for what is in any other sense a centrist party.

Have you considered signing this petition to make sure the policy gets scrutinised and the weight of public sentiment against it is known?

Change.org petition: Stop Labour from adding 20% VAT to private school fees and forcing kids to change schools

www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools

Various perspectives from the signatories of this vote come to mind and resonate with our own situation, including this: “I work in a state school with over 30 in a class and oversubscribed. My 2 kids went or go to private schools and we have sacrificed loads to do this. We are NOT wealthy, many of the kids at the school I work at live in bigger houses and have much more disposable income than we do. We chose to send our kids to private school rather than live in a bigger house instead of our semi detached on a main road. We holiday in the UK every year and I work full time. I buy my clothes on the high street or in charity shops. Many parents at the school my kids attend are in exactly the same situation. I agree there are some very wealthy parents there too and the addition of VAT will not even make an impact on them, they will pay it without batting an eyelid. All this will do is push the kids like ours back into an already oversubscribed state system, increase class sizes even more and create a bigger divide as private education will become truly elitist.”

This ridicule of children is disgraceful. Labour supporters ripping the piss out of 'posh' kids - you all need to have a little rummage.

The childish name calling by apparently grown adults of innocent children, and the glee shown at the thought of disrupting children’s lives is, quite frankly, disgusting. It says quite a lot about a person’s personality if they take delight in this. No wonder there are lots people on these threads saying they had to leave the state system because of unbearable bullying; I’ll hazard a guess that the majority of the bullies have spiteful, awful parents like the ones making such comments on these threads.

Luckily our youngest is just doing his A Levels so we will escape this. My sympathies go to those who have paid for their kids so far and are facing any difficult decisions re removing them from their schoolmates and years of loyalty to their educational establishment.

On a different note I wonder if some clever bursars will try to add their existing private schools into the growing number of state boarding schools. They seem to escape all the vitriol online (on here and in the comments section in the mainstream newspapers), receive no criticism re university admissions and must cost the taxpayer a fortune. They even escape the wrath of the Sutton Trust. Before anyone chimes in I am not referring to the many dedicated SEND boarding schools.

All this chat about ex private school pupils taking up grammar school places - you do realise that only 5% of secondary school students in England go to a grammar school. The vast majority attend a local comprehensive.

Private schools can mitigate against fee rises if they choose. That may mean larger classes (would 20 rather than 15 be a disaster), less ex curricular, younger staff, less resources. These are all things that state schools have had to do x10 in the last ten years thanks to the ideology of the current government - hang on, that sounds familiar.

We don’t have grammar nearby but comprehensives become more inaccessible by virtue of high house price. Around £1.5 to £2.5m

So you'll enjoy watching one cohort's schooling get trashed while they're at a "crap state school". That sort of attitude's definitely what we need to grow the country. Me, I don't want anyone going to crap schools.

The next cohort will just plan around this, as others have said. They'll buy the best state schools, displacing other kids. The country will have fewer private schools, fewer good schools, and "the rich" will still get the best of it.

Not only this levelling-down leave us poorer in future, but it won't even generate the equality that seems to be the only thing advocates care about. And, I hate to break it to you, it won't make you happier.

There's another worry for people who will (contrary to the central planners' projection that "the rich will pay, they always do") move school. The hideous tone of this debate, which you've just highlighted, isnt' exactly going to make for a great environment to receive independently-educated children into state school.

Children will be picking up on the class hatred.

Why do you think state boarding schools cost the taxpayer a fortune? Tuition costs are covered by the state but the boarding fees of around £16- 20k are paid by parents.

On other threads there have been some really unpleasant comments about council estate kids and poor parenting. There has also been some really toxic comments about ‘mobs’ and ‘pitchforks’. I have myself picked some posters up on it

The toxicity around this debate has resulted in some awful comments - let alone the constant refrain of the ‘politics of envy’ rather than accepting that posters may genuinely feel that less private school might result in a fairer society with less privileged access. No those in favour of this policy can only be motivated by jealousy.

So please don’t pretend that it’s only coming from one side. It behooves all of us as parents, grandparents, teachers or just interested members of society to discuss this issue without ridiculous ideas such as independently educated young people will somehow be subject to (your words) ‘class hatred’.

And finally as a state school teacher I have taught MANY students who have moved from independent to state over the years and they have always been judged on their own merits. Believe it or not, teenagers of 14/15/16 etc couldn’t care less which school a child came from. They’re much more interested in what type of person they are.

@theresnolimits you're right it's coming from both sides, which is exactly what politicians want - a class war to distract from how incompetent they are.

I like how Finland is mentioned in the article about the fact they don’t have private schools -maybe one reason they don’t need them as their VAT is 24% and not 20% as in UK -if UK had 24% VAT it would generate 30.5 billion extra a year -pretty much can double state school funding thus making it much better for everyone -even 1% increase on VAT will generate extra 8.5 billion -but I guess that is not popular idea as all will need to pay that extra 1% -if we want a better state schools etc and I personally want as my child more then likely will be going through state - believe it need to be a collective effort from all not a tiny portion of parents of PS educated kids responsible to make it better.

I am also interested in what happens to the saved money by the government -say 660000 kids educated in PS plus add another 120000 home schooled that saves approx 7k per school placement per child in total should be around 5.5 billion saved -what is happening to that ?

On the subject of pretending, I don't believe anyone genuinely believes that this will lead to a "fairer society" or that access to the best schools will be less "privileged." As things stand, one third of children in independent schools are in the middle or lower two socioeconomic quintiles. It is these children who will be affected - access will inevitably become more exclusive.

Education in this country is predominantly unfair because of the differences between the best and worst comprehensive schools, where most of society is educated. The focus on private schools is simply a diversion from this fact.

Finally, I am sceptical that you have any idea how pupils judge one another. In the state school where I was a pupil, a boy was systematically bullied to death (suicide by hanging), seemingly for the way he spoke and for his ability in latin, right under the noses of his teachers.

You may well be sceptical that I understand how pupils judge one another - that is your right. However after teaching for nearly 30 years in mixed comprehensive schools of varying types, I don’t think any of my colleagues or parents of the students I have taught would have a similar scepticism I might even go as far as to say that having worked closely with literally thousands of young people over that time, I may a tad more experience than you.

And sadly, during that time I have been involved with teenagers who have taken their own lives. And because I have, I feel terribly sad about the instance you cite. So I am not going to get into any discussion about an individual incident other than to say, teenage suicide is a complete mix of internal and external factors.

Throughout this debate I have tried to call out extremism on both sides, intemperate language and to perhaps shed light on what the opposing arguments might be. But it always descends into personal attacks like this and ‘scepticism’ about any other viewpoint. So I’m out.

It's so important to note that Finland has private schools and they don't pay VAT.

What also happens is that lower and middle earners pay MUCH higher rates of income tax. We really can't say "let's be like Finland" and imagine we get there by "taxing the rich" let alone by taxing education.

While we're about "not pretending" please don't let's pretend all state schools are remotely comparable to each other. What you're describing about children treating each other with respect sounds lovely but there are far too many children who moved from state to independent schools as a result of bullying.

What I highlighted is that that people going the other way, given how unpleasant posters are about independent school families, are right to be worried about the reception they will get. At worst we'll be taking victims of bullying and giving back to the bully they escaped from.

@theresnolimits
Distinct from your accusation of pretence, there was no personal attack - you implied that you know what children in your school are thinking, and what they are doing when you are not there, and I expressed doubt.

As ever in these threads, the response of the anti-private school commentator is to bow out rather than reconsider their position when it does not fit the facts.

The Finnish government actually subsidises private schools.

https://eurydice.eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-education-systems/finland/organisation-private-education

Becauae there’s so many of them….

A lot of posts saying this barely affects anybody, while also bemoaning how many posts on this there are 🤔

It is unclear whether any money will be raised by a VAT increase on private schools.

If Baines and Cutler's poll is correct that 42% of parents may leave the independent sector within 5 years and 14% immediately (as reported in The Telegraph today) then it will cost the government money rather than raising money.

Crikey

Well let’s see if Labour notice the survey

Why would anyone put any faith into a survey done by a for profit company that offers consultancy service to private schools? I’d hope they’d read the IFS one instead which puts it at 3-7%

Why would being paid for the survey make a difference?

The behaviour of parents is hard to predetermine. Asking them is one way to do it.

The EDSK (an independent think tank) say, "that previous claims about how much new revenue could be unlocked by this policy seem very optimistic, particularly if any more than a small number of pupils end up leaving independent schools and moving to the state sector instead."

From https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/independent-schools-proposed-vat-changes/

"In April 2024, the Times reported on the results of a survey of high net worth individuals conducted by Saltus, a financial planning firm.[41] 71% of respondents to the survey said that rising school fees would have an impact on their choices around private schooling in the future. It found that 26% of parents in its survey said they “would have to remove their children from independent school if VAT was imposed”.
A statement released by the ISC in advance of the publication of their 2024 census, said that Labour’s VAT proposals had already resulted in a decrease in the number of children joining independent schools.It found that enrolments at independent schools for the 2023–24 academic year fell by 2.7%. This was the largest annual drop since 2011, when the ISC began collecting data on new starters."