To ask if you'd sign petition to ban XL bullies?

[Miajk]

On the back of another thread.

Most fatal dog attacks in the UK have something in common: the breeds involved, largely XL bullies.

These dogs can weigh as much as 50-60 kg (115-135lbs roughly). Before anyone says "it's not the breed it's the owner" - in that case why do statistics clearly show it is the breeds? Why are there no fatal dog attacks involving labradors, golden retrievers, husky dogs? Even German shepherds.

There's a petition to ban them: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618243

Most likely better for the dogs and everyone around them.

Also where is the evidence for this "bred as nanny dogs" line that some people have used? Everything I have seen has said they were from bull breeds originally bred for bull baiting, then used to fight. Selectively inbred for aggression and dog fighting. About as far from a genetic inheritance as you would want around kids. The XL that spotted my 3 month old in the carrier when we were out for a walk in my local area, and started growling and straining at the lead to get to us, snarling, and had to be restrained by TWO grown men certainly didn't look like he was coming to help nanny my baby....

Why do people accept that retrievers like to carry things, herders like to herd things, newfies like to swim, greyhounds like to chase small furries, but suggest dogs with fighting in their pedigrees might have an inbuilt reward system for doing such that and you get accused of "racism"?. This is a really well written article explaining how we have manipulated parts of the predictary sequencehttps://www.tarynblyth.co.za/genetics-and-behaviour

Please, if you are looking for a new dog or puppy to join your family think very hard about whether it will be stronger than you and whether their is fighting, guarding or killing in their DNA. Sorry, but hearing two xl bully's, which live next to a primary school and have already escaped from the yard , putting a small dog at risk already report I would never bring them into a home with children. You are 270× being bitten by a bully compared to other dogs. They need to go.

To the person who said when was the last time your heard a Yorkshire terrier attacking

What happened in the 80s 90s and 00s is irrelevant. Obviously there are more deaths by other dogs as they have been around longer.

American XL Bullies are overrepresented in dog attack statistics. Bully Watch - a UK group that tracks dog attacks by breed - reports so far this year, large bully-type dogss_ have been involved in 351 attacks, making up 43% of 2023's total dog attacks. They have been responsible for 11 confirmed human deaths since 2021 - as well as having suspected involvement in three other deaths.
To be honest I'm surprised it's not higher that 43%. Yes the dogs can be lovely if brought up right. However any dog can turn and obviously you have more chance fighting a Yorkshire Terrier or Jack Russel off.

It's totally the unlicensed breeders and owners faults.

What is the punishment though? If they were fined (either directly through their wages / benefits) then this MIGHT work?

DH is retiring soon. Well sort off and he always said he would get a dog. He's been to look at TWO Cane Corsos. Now I have nothing against these however DH will still be working away just not as often and I cannot train or exercise one of those dogs never mind two. Not a chance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom Reading this list shows that there are three 3 categories of fatal dog attacks.

1. The Usual suspects: Rottweiler, Alsatian, Husky, Staffy, Cane Corso, American Bulldog, and recently XL Bully.

2. Really unlucky unforseeable concatenations of events like a minor bite wound becoming infected.

3. Any dog whatsoever and a newborn baby. The newborn deaths are a different category of risk completely and need to be dealt with by constant parent vigilance. Newborn babies die from plastic bags, pillows, duvets, baths, honey, iron tablets: a million things that aren't risky in any other context. Yes a chihuahua can kill a newborn baby but doesn't mean that you shouldn't judge the risk of a dog by its breed.

I don't think you can count Huskies in that list though.

True, huskies aren't fighting dogs, they're just large and powerful dogs which get kept in the wrong environment by the wrong people, and that often goes wrong, very occasionally with terrible consequences.

Fantastic article, thanks for sharing. Explains this so clearly.

It is clear we need better education with our dog ownership in this country. What is the answer? Licenses for dog ownership, mandatory training module in person or online regarding how to train and care for your specific breed? Facts on where breeds came from along with how to care for them, like this article explains. An awful lot of people who own big bully breed dogs seem to use lines such as "it's not the breed, it's the owner". And the obvious answer is that you can be a fantastic owner and train your dog really well, but you can't train inherited/breeding traits out. You might make it less likely for the dog to cause serious harm to humans or other animals through keeping them well cared for and trained appropriately for their breed type but as this article so clearly explains, if that instinct is triggered, it is going to be very difficult for even the best trained dog to have that interrupted.

It is terrifying that so many people are employing some kind of cognitive dissonance - the ability to KNOW the facts, that a bully breed was originally bred for bringing down bigger animals, and has been selectively bred for fighting since, and KNOW that you and your children have no chance of fighting it off if it gets its instincts triggered...You can KNOW this but use tactics on your self like "this dog is a member of the family so would never hurt us." Therefore "this dog is "good" with my children and other pets I own, and so I must believe that it is safe with other children and pets". The dogs who escape homes or cars and kill, who frequently grab and shake to death smaller dogs on walks...owners must be kidding themselves with "that would never happen to my dog". I understand why...people fall in love with their pet and then have these views to protect themselves from the fear of living with and loving something that can be so dangerous. However I have no sympathy for those who are complaining despite fact they have been told categorically that they can keep their pet, just make sure it is responsibly held, trained, muzzled when in public (start muzzle training now with an appropriate muzzle and it won't be a problem for your dog by the time it is law). If you want to own a dog of this breed type, the least you can do for the sake of everyone else is be responsible with that dog in public shared spaces. Your dog may be lovely when part of its "pack" and well cared for, but what about when it sees that 4 year old running in the park and those hard wired instincts are triggered...

Sorry to hijack your post with a rant 😂

I think personally every single dog that exists in the U.K now that has that powerful lock jaw and is over a certain weight should be neutered to reduce the amount of them so that’s all bull breeds/ mastiffs etc to be neutered. Make it illegal to import them too. Then it should be illegal to buy or sell any dog without an appointment with a vet who registers , chips, sees proof of insurance and so on. Make it too expensive and too much paperwork for scum bags to own the dogs. If every animal is licensed and traceable it’ll almost cut out surrenders to shelters too. The licence fee for dog ownership will cover the costs of enforcement. The dvla do a grand job of making sure motorists are insured and keeping tabs on drivers and vehicles. Similar approach for dogs.

100% This!
Dog owners should have a licence to be able to own one. Dogs should be neutered (unless a breeding licence has been granted by a regulatory body), mandatory microchips, registered vet and insurance.
It's time we made it impossible for irresponsible dog owners to own them, and educate the people who are willing to learn.
We also need to stop endless breeding by imbeciles wanting to earn a quick buck. We need tough punishments for breeding outside of having a licence to do so.

A ban can't come quick enough. It's bad luck for those who have trained their dogs well but the risk is too high and frankly why does anyone think they need one.

Isn't that the point if the ban?

Illegal to breed?

Hear hear!

The whole issue is that the dogs who attack are not socialised properly. To ban the breed will cause THOUSANDS of dogs to become unsocialised, which will only escalate the issue further. When a person chooses to own a pet, they accept and acknowledge that they could be hurt by said pet, whether that's a dog or a cat or even a parrot. The issue is the owners who do not take responsibility in training their pets, all issues with any breed or even species is always solely down to the owners. We cannot ethically euthanize child killers such as Lucy Letby and therefore, ethically we should not be doing so to any specific other species or breeds. I personally have a standard/classic bully and half of the public assume she is an XL, which she is not. There is no correct way to determine the breed and this will cause for thousands of innocent Cross breeds to be wrongly identified. Banning this breed will honestly only cause the situation to eventually become worse and it most definetly isn't the most effective way to prevent attacks. Attacks happen by all breeds, its just the larger dogs have more power. There has been recent attacks reported by rottweilers for example, tackling "xl bully attacks" will not help tackle the bigger issue at hand.

Socialisation is only part of the problem - some breeds can be well socialised as puppies but aloof with strangers as adults. If those breeds are used to create mixed breed dogs, there's no guarantee they will be 100% safe - especially if they have been rehomed after the socialisation stage has passed. If the majority of owners can't properly socialise an easy, sociable breed they will never manage an unsociable one. And socialisation isn't enough. They also need training.

But that shouldn't be on the individual to decide what risk level to put out there into the world, as we have seen time and time again that the people who get hurt by the aggressive dogs are usually outside of the owners immediate family/"pack". An awful lot of us are NOT accepting the risk that owners of these dogs are putting out there for us. We all know that the harm a parrot or cat or MOST other dogs can cause is nothing compared to these large American bully breeds. I do not wish harm on any individual dog, but putting a muzzle on and neutering a dog that could cause serious damage or death to people if it escapes or pulls off its lead is just sensible, responsible, and not causing the dog real harm (yes I know it can take getting used to, but it should be in your remit as a responsible owner to take advice on and inplement gentle muzzle training). Walk it around other dogs, away from children's play areas and busy areas, with a muzzle and lead on, and it can still be socialised, but in a way that is more safe for others. If you are concerned about your dog being seen as an XL, don't you have any kind of breed certification that you could show to prove it isn't? If you get that kind of proof in place, what is the issue? You won't have your dog taken away unless it is dangerous and out of control.

At no point did I state that I disagree with implementing safety precautions, my only argument is why only target one breed. The attacks that have taken place by absolutely any breed have been awful and there needs to be laws Implemented with who can own or breed any type of dog. You think because a smaller dog attack isn't normally fatal that the victims then don't go on to suffer from a life time of ptsd or worse.. I do not believe in banning breeds, but I definetly do believe in banning some people from ever owning any type of breed. The best way to ensure thorough and effective public safety would be to start with the owners and breeders, not just targeting 1 entire breed. I have no issues with taking precautions with my dog to make sure the public feel safe, I do have an issue with her being labelled a monster..

To add I do not believe in buying puppies from breeders, I believing there are too dogs needing homes and to rescue is better. As my girl was rescued she has no paper work, I only know she isn't an XL because I have met XLs and they are twice the size of her. She is not much bigger than a staffy but everyone who has never seen an XL keep assuming she is one. She has grew up and been trained by adults and children in her last home, she absolutely loves any type of other animal including farm animals and our cat. We even paid a year's fee for a trainer when we first got her just to make sure we had training to control her too. She is not a danger to anybody but I respect that people fear her and I would abide by any safety precautions (such as muzzles in public). I just want to ensure she has a full life, we take her camping and to Cornwall regularly. Being put on the banned list means even with a muzzle she will no longer be allowed in holiday rentals or camp sites.. She doesn't deserve her life to be effected so much when she has done no wrong

She doesn't deserve her life to be effected so much when she has done no wrong

She's a dog! She won't miss what she doesn't have and has no concept of.

She knows exactly what she is missing, she has already been travelling with us many times so she has a full concept of it. Your just being argumentative and unwilling to hear any one else's opinions.

That's great that you have been so loving and responsible with your own dog, I wish every owner gave their dog the attentiveness, training etc that you describe.
Unfortunately though, many many owners of big bully breeds get them because they have seen celebrities with them and see them as status dogs, or maybe because they are insecure and don't feel powerful in the world, and like the feeling of having something that is intimidating that they can have an ego trip over ("this huge powerful animal listens to my commands!"). Worst, many people have them because they live in fear for whatever reason, so have the dog as essentially a guard dog or intimidation tool.
Without a ban, people fitting above owner descriptions will keep owning and breeding these dogs and putting more and more risk out there into the country. Many other countries have beaten us to it and absolutely ban any breed with Pitbull in the mix (because it has been proven time and time again how dangerous these dogs can become, even when trained and raised well) A ban is the simplest way to take these dogs out of circulation and stop it being so easy to breed and sell them, whilst also enabling people who can prove themselves responsible owners to keep them. If you are sure yours isn't an XL isn't there a way you can get a professional to test her and sign off on this?
To be honest I always avoid ANY chunky bull breed, including staffies, in the street or park with my kids. We have had staffies that are lovely and fine in the family, but they can be territorial and do real damage if they grab a child in public, so I avoid avoid! It is very much on the owner to take the consequences of their choices - if you want to own a dog that is over represented in random dog attacks on public/children and has the physical features to kill easily, then the consequence will be that people will not welcome you into certain spaces. I'm taking my one year old and 4 year old camping next year and it would totally ruin my holiday if we had a chunky bull breed dog running around the campsite, there is no way I would take my eyes off the ball and relax for a second. Dogs are not humans and should not have rights to be in every space. I'm a dog lover but absolutely would not expect to take my dog into certain places where people might be trying to relax, have picnics, play with their babies on the floor etc. A dog is happy if it gets outside spaces, fresh air, chance to play with other dogs, love and boundaries at home. They do not need to have access to every human space and do not have the cognition to feel that they are missing out, if their other needs are being met.

But everything you are saying can be said about any type of large breed not just an xl bully. I don't appreciate people having small yappy dogs off lead on camp sites either running loose.. My whole point is that drastic changes need to made with all animals allowed in public spaces and not just 1 specific breed. My late dog was a Staffie and he was almost 15 years old and he never ever hurt a soul, yet he was attacked handfuls of times by other people's big and small dogs off leads. Why should a rottweiler or alsation (which are bred and trained to be police protection) be allowed on camp sites with no muzzle or lead but a bull breed not even be allowed with a muzzle and lead. I don't care how good a dogs recall is they should never be off lead in any public space. Again if you look at the bigger picture we all actually want the same things, it's just some people are only targeting one breed instead of tackling the bigger issue at hand. Regardless of my dogs size or recall they will never be left to run loose anywhere. Not everyone buys a dog for protection, I got mine to protect her because I new if she fell into the wrong hands it would be a disaster waiting to happen or she would be bred to death. Not all bully owners are bad or irresponsible but the way people are targeting the breed specifically is causing the owners to be targeted and judged also.

Totally agree that there needs to be an overhaul more generally on who can breed and own dogs. Licensing, and registered breeders, mandatory microchipping, mandatory breed specific training for big dogs to gain the licence etc.
Totally, I wouldn't want to see a rottweiler running around off lead either! And there is a massive Alsatian walked near me that pulls at its lead, and I always stop to let it go and keep well out of its path....
The problem is that the XL is so overrepresented in violent, sudden attacks...considering they have only been around in this country for a few years. They have genetic links to pitbulls, already banned because of their known aggression and danger. For those reasons they should be banned, BUT agree this would be a good time with the momentum to ensure there is more oversight and regulation on ownership of ANY dog over certain weights and bite force.
It is good that you have given your girl a loving home and good training. I walked past a couple with an XL yesterday and they had it with a harness, short strong lead, walking to heel, and a muzzle. Both of them walking it together so better chance at keeping it under control. It felt like they were doing everything in their power to be responsible. I feel like a lot of people would see that and appreciate it, whether you like the dog type or not. I felt so massively reassured seeing it muzzled. Sadly a huge proportion of owners of these types of dogs are not like you and these owners, and that is why the ban must happen. Make it as easy as possible to regulate and keep track of existing XLs with responsible owners, whilst increasing legal powers for removing them from irresponsible ones, and stop the incessant breeding by outlawing it and making neutering mandatory. Those things can only happen with a ban.

Do you own an XL?? I'm guessing not. My XL is 7 month old and a jerk, he's playful with lots and lots of energy, he loves to meet new people ( like everybody ), he let's other people's dogs jump all over him and he's just stands there letting them, he's very protective of his house ( which any dog owner would want ), he's very loving and wants cuddles and kisses all the time. So to say its the breed of dog is so wrong. They are strong, powerful dogs with lots of love and if brought up like this jerk, there is nothing but love and affection and no danger to nobody