WEP women's declaration

[WEPwoman]

The WEP women's declaration is signed by members and supporters and those who would like to support us by standing shoulder to shoulder across party lines to protect our sex based rights.

ipetitions.com/petition/wep?fbclid=IwAR2Zky5HSd902wH35NSZuo_QzV0Y117_HPZeZdSCTHWMkWNu2HpZQHKvpU8

Sign our petition if you wish to show your support too.

This thread has gone well
I was almost taken in at the beginning of it.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

People are angry about the party you represent

As are we. Why do you think we are doing this?

vaguely apologetic you come here asking for a favor

What are we supposed to be apologetic for? That people we had no control over did things we had no control over? Women being expected to apologise and atone for the mistakes of others is the ultimate in oppression, we are not picking that bill up and no thanks to you for suggesting we should.

We are not "asking for a favour." If people don't care enough to change the party then it won't change. Your choice.

If the Women's Equality Party can't protect itself from male influence and subversion, who can?

Exactly. We are fighting back for that very reason.

I truly believe that you feel strongly about this, OP, but to be honest it might be better for you to start again. New party, stronger safeguards. Sometimes there are just too many holes in the boat to make it worth repairing, and it seems to be the case here. Launch your own ship, and actually DO what the WEP was supposed to do.

THAT, I could believe in.

Regrettably, in 2019, there are women from 4 political parties now compelled to publicly petition their leadership in this manner.

OP, I'll say to you what I've said to women in other parties who have started these kind of declarations: all power to your elbow, and I hope you get some traction. Even if you are lagging behind a bit, better late than never. I actively want people to be able to stand up and say this, and I will celebrate any that do, so I am glad you have done this, and I hope you get support for it.

Unfortunately, it won't be enough to save your party - as others have said, You Had One Job. There's no point in a Women's Party where women have to fight for the class of "woman" to be recognised as a real thing.

I truly believe that you feel strongly about this, OP, but to be honest it might be better for you to start again. New party, stronger safeguards. Sometimes there are just too many holes in the boat to make it worth repairing, and it seems to be the case here. Launch your own ship, and actually DO what the WEP was supposed to do.

THAT, I could believe in.

Gertrudesgarden is spot-on.

ps I love love love the passive aggressive "your choice" in your last post.

I don't think you should be in politics, hen.

AGP not a fetish, eh?

Never ceases to amaze me, the way people who claim to support women's rights and protest against sexism can't see right through this one.

The entire bloody thing is rooted in getting off on being what one's society teaches is the fuckable object. It doesn't happen in the absence of sexualised stereotypes of woman-as-desirable-fucktoy.

If that's a sexuality then it's an inherently misogynistic one rooted in women's oppression. Which is rather at odds with the idea of sexualities as harmless and natural, no?

What are we supposed to be apologetic for? That people we had no control over did things we had no control over? Women being expected to apologise and atone for the mistakes of others is the ultimate in oppression, we are not picking that bill up and no thanks to you for suggesting we should.

How fucking dare you? Don’t come the duplicitous preaching of feminist doctrine to me or the other women here. We’re not the ones who were complicit in selling other women down the river for a bunch of TRAs and sexual fetishists - you were (and still are judging by your posts here) and you can bleat that “they made me do it” and “we were tricked and had no control” until the cows come home - I’m not fucking buying what you’re selling.

OP, women have been hurt by the actions of the WEP. You must understand that?

Have you ever seen the webchat they did here? It was a trainwreck of a thread - a party supposedly set up by and for women, saying "TWAW" at feminists who know damn well that a male cannot be a female.

It should never have been that way - a woman's party where women have the exact same fight as in all the other parties. What's the point.

theflushedzebra

You seriously think that's a good idea?

No I don't. But Stonewall has now trained hundreds of organisations to pretty much think its a fantastic idea. I think it is terrible idea, that's why I am doing this.

Anyway, threads on mumsnet always go like this:

Mumsnet 1) Why oh why is someone not doing anything?

Someone does something.

Mumsnet 2) You are doing it all wrong.

theflushedzebra their very first "chat" was even worse: a big plopping post expecting that we'd all fall in line, then not even bothering to stay and deal with questions.

OP - I think you may have had a better response by being clearer in your first post that this is a grassroots thing aimed at changing official WEP policy, and not an official WEP thing.

Most of us here would not currently trust an official WEP thing as far as we could throw it.

Oh hell. I've just signed your petition but now, with all this stuff about counting fetishes as sexuality I want to go back and withdraw my support.

For the WEP to shoot itself in the foot once by allowing the AGPs and TWs in is bad enough, but now to argue that cross-dressing is sexuality and so protected – that's suicide.

No GC woman can ever vote for the WEP. It's over. Just fold.

Now off to see if I can remove my signature from your petition.

thatdamnwoman the petition isn't be WEP leadership. It's not by women who think cross dressing should be protected as a sexuality, but those who in WEP who think the opposite and are seeking to influence WEP leadership. Why would you withdraw support from women who you agree with, I don't understand?

We’re not the ones who were complicit in selling other women down the river for a bunch of TRAs and sexual fetishists - you were

Err - no. The women behind this petition are NOT WEP leadership and absolutely were not involved in that.

They are WEP members who are as horrified by that stance as you and are trying to do something about it.

A lot of people believe AGP, as a known sexuality, should not be stigmatised.
There is a major distinction to be made between non-stigmatisation and changing the Equality Act 2010 to make this male sexuality a replacement for legal sex under a label of gender identity

What a load of rubbish WEPwoman

1st, as PPs have said, AGP is a fetish not a sexuality. In the case of public performance, it bloody well should be stigmatised. People in public are not there to be part of men's sexual fantasies. Access to women's toilets - spaces for women and children remember - must be banned because AGP men going in there to get wank fodder for later (or worse as many masturbate while actually in there) are sex abusers. I'm not a 'who will think of the children' drama queen but your implicit defence of men who may well be masturbating in the cubicle next to my 7 year old is fucking sick.

2nd, CM wasn't even saying the man's self-confessed AGP fetish should be destigmatised. She stated unequivocally that he was a woman and had the same right as any other woman to access women's spaces.

I'm also really regretting signing

They are WEP members who are as horrified by that stance as you and are trying to do something about it.

We did do something about it. We voted with our feet. At the time.
Not after months of silence and indifference later, on the cusp of a (I'm sure completely coincidental) GE.

We all supported the WEP when it started, we all hoped for a breath of fresh air, for a party that would stand up for women. WEP failed majestically on the single issue they ran on.

Fool me once...

your implicit defence of men who may well be masturbating in the cubicle next to my 7 year old is fucking sick.

I object to your abusive smears. You have over stepped the mark there.

I have posted a link to a well known and influential author who DOES DEFEND IT.

Please refrain from smearing me for referencing someone's work to illustrate OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS.

I will be reporting your nasty, crude and abusive post.

For the WEP to shoot itself in the foot once by allowing the AGPs and TWs in is bad enough, but now to argue that cross-dressing is sexuality and so protected – that's suicide.

You are making this up. I am requesting @mnhq remove this thread as these made up accusations are appalling.

Your post of 1144 said something along the lines that philia is just a sexual orientation.....so therefore that leads logically to AGP being a protected characteristic within the law.

You don't think this:

A lot of people believe AGP, as a known sexuality, should not be stigmatised. There is a major distinction to be made between non-stigmatisation and changing the Equality Act 2010 to make this male sexuality a replacement for legal sex under a label of gender identity

is pretty compromising? I don't feel reassured that any AGP TW rocking up to the WEP and claiming protected sexuality wouldn't be ushered in as a women. Clarity needed.

Why is Alice Drager cited and not Ray Blanchard or Freund? Is the suggestion that because a woman has declared that AGP is a sexuality then that's okay? I'm not sure other experts would agree.

WEPwoman, would your new WEP include in the leadership or in any position of influence anyone who wasn't observed to be female at birth? What, actually, would be the criteria for joining the WEP? Would one have to have been observed female at birth to be a voting member?

You don't think this:

A lot of people believe AGP, as a known sexuality, should not be stigmatised. There is a major distinction to be made between non-stigmatisation and changing the Equality Act 2010 to make this male sexuality a replacement for legal sex under a label of gender identity

is pretty compromising?

Compromising? In what way is it compromising? As in I am guilty of something or I have offered to make a compromise? I can't see either in there but do elaborate.

Blanchard also describes it as a sexuality. I don't think from memory he thinks it should be stigmatized either. I refer to Alice as she is quite surprisingly accommodating, considering how abused she was by a couple of people.

My point is that there is a big difference between not stigmatizing and legally protecting and replacing sex with gender identity as a result. Under the guise of not stigmatising we are being expected to remove the rights associated with the protected characteristic sex.

Stonewall have already achieved much of the first part haven't they? Cross dressing is no longer socially unacceptable. Whether you agree with this or not you are not likely to get anyone supporting a law that polices clothing.

The second part of my paragraph is key though and as Alice Dreger says is this: (I've posted this once already)

It makes sense to me to maintain a strong legal concept of which behaviors are allowed.

So she draws the line at behaviour which is exactly what is talked about here constantly, the limits that must legally be placed on behaviour.

I don't proclaim to have all the answers but I do try to understand what is going on and why things are moving the way they are.

Reading what key figures in research in this field have written and published does help me in that.

But referring to them doesn't make me a sick person that should be abused by posters in scenarios that I have not mentioned or alluded to.

WEPwoman, would your new WEP include in the leadership or in any position of influence anyone who wasn't observed to be female at birth? What, actually, would be the criteria for joining the WEP? Would one have to have been observed female at birth to be a voting member?

The positions are all voted for. So it is up to the voters.

Membership has never been female only.....

H Brunskell-Evans
@brunskellevans
So pleased some women
@WEP_Uk
are now standing up for the very sex-based principles that I, as a Spokeswoman in 2017, was forbidden from discussing. How things have changed! Anyway, let's join together to resist the denigration of women within all political parties