to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

Ok - I've just googled transphobic

What you are immediately labeled as if you speak any sense of reason in today's twisted world
Becky: Hey, don't you think it's a little weird John is in the women's bathroom with us? I don't really feel comfortable about this...

Sarah: WHAT THE HELL BECKY?!! How dare you be so insensitive?!! You're just a transphobic piece of shit and should just fuck off!

I just don't necessarily link self-identification with a greater propensity for attacks on women.

Absolutely. It's the loss of sex segregated spaces - the existence of which are well documented to reduce attacks on women - that is the issue.

Forget WHY it is being proposed for a moment - just think about what is being proposed - the removal of sex segregated spaces.

Or, put another way the removal of safety precautions put in place to protect women.

Surely all women would want to have their voices heard in relation to that?

The prison issue - well being locked up with a predatory man is possible - (anything is possible) - but you would know he was a man. Everyone would know he's a man and make a decision about whether they feel comfortable around him or not. It's common sense

This might be the most stupid thing I have ever read.

AccidentalKylie

That's willful ignorance. There have been plenty of those screenshot on here. You are in denial and I understand why, hear no evil springs to mind, because if you saw it you might have to ask yourself some troubling questions so ignorance it is then.... Now that is bigoted.

Bigots, Transphobes, Arse, Girls!!

At least Father Jack was funny. The people trying to deny women a voice are freakin scary!!!

Circle - if I was in a cell with a man who identified as a woman, I would be ok in principle with that, as long as they didn't behave in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. If they did, I would complain about that behaviour and ask to move. Same as if there was something about a woman cell mate that made me uncomfortable.

I don't believe they are likely to start banging up men who ID as women and female prisoners in the same cell anyway - this flies in the face of common sense and risk assessments. They may have access to each other in supervised communal spaces, as in normal life.

You do yourself no favours calling other people stupid.

It's all middle fucking class, small minded women, of a certain age who are totally terrified of anything 'other'.

I’m not middle class. If you want my snowflake status rundown I’m a non-British, working class, 35yo bisexual woman who was employed in the medical field for a decade. I’ve met a great many trans people - I have referred a number for treatment and have great respect for them.

I have an issue with self-ID proposals, the broadening of the umbrella of trans which means many trans people will miss out on needed medical and social care and I also care about the erosion of what it means to be a woman and LGB rights.

These things impact my life and the life of many people I know, I want our voices to be heard.

Unless you've walked in their shoes, you can't begin to understand.

Here's the thing - you're right I don't understand. I don't pretend to. I don't wish to diminish or appropriate the experiences and struggles of the Trans community.

Yet some trans activists believe they understand what it is to be female - nay are female. They want to appropriate women's experiences and struggles and claim them.

This isn't equality.

G1tterati

Suited - you can complain about inappropriate behaviour, be this by male if female, but not about someone's self-id.

Exactly - I am not allowed to feel uncomfortable or uneasy, because a Self ID'd Transwoman's right to be in there trumps my discomfort at him being in a previously segregated space. His wishes come before mine, and I can only complain if he is actually harassing me or my children. Staring at us, him walking around naked etc won't be enough

Glad you've grasped it now

@AccidentalKylie
the increased risk of cancer, osteoporosis, heart disease, circulatory issues might put some people off

Being a woman is indeed inconvenient from this point of view. I agree, it’s off-putting.

But if you genuinely feel like a woman and wish to live as a woman then them’s the breaks. Surely? We can’t pick and choose as biological women - why should a trans woman get to avoid the offputting bits?

18 month waiting lists - current legislation has you live in your assumed gender for 2+ years anyway, so it runs alongside? Plus, waiting lists for ALL health conditions are a big issue. Mental health services, which this falls under, I assume, are some of the worst hit.

Campaign for that. Campaign fur better medical representation for trans people.

Plus - I don’t know why you chose to assume I was talking about just trans women. I’m equally as interested in trans men and why they might need self ID.

Bombardier, please point out the transphobic posts?

Oxford, yes, that is about the crux of it. But you will be called transphobic by many for expressing that.

g1itterati
So what would they do with a trans prisoner. Put them in solitary confinement? Surely that is discrimination on the grounds of trans status.

Being a woman is indeed inconvenient from this point of view. I agree, it’s off-putting.

The same applies to any woman, though. HRT is HRT, whether you're trans or cis. But an older cis woman can give up taken estrogen because she's had a heart attack or because her bones are turning to dust without having her womanhood called into question.

g1itterati

I mentioned up thread that I was assaulted when I was on the ward after giving birth to my last baby. I was assaulted by a man who was allowed to be there because partners are allowed to stay with the mother a baby.
It started with him learing at me and then moved to him making crude comments which is when I complained. I was told there was nothing they could do, there was no where else to move either me or them to - the hospital was packed to the rafters. They couldn’t ask him to leave he had a “right to be there”.
Then he shouted at me for being covered in blood and eventually abused me for my baby crying and my blood dripping onto the floor. I was assaulted.
So it started with the fact that I didn’t feel safe, I complained, there was nothing they could do. He had a right to be there and there was no where for me to move to.
Then he assaulted me.

How can you not see how vulnerable women might a.) not feel up to complaining b.) might not be listened to c.) if they are, their complaints cannot be accommodated immediately?

I see the point you are trying to make @g1itterati but it's one that's already being challenged.

Swim England guidelines basically say if women are uncomfortable with a man in female changing rooms then they need to be "educated" as to why that's ok.

There's a flurry of posters being put in female toilets by activists saying (I paraphrase) "if you see someone in this facility whose not the sex you expect and it makes you uncomfortable, then imagine how uncomfortable they are".

In other words, don't complain.

Suited - no you can complain about him walking around naked if you want, particularly if there are children about.

Would you feel uncomfortable about other women walking around naked? I would personally, so I wouldn't be in that kind of changing room in the first place - male or female.

g1itterati
On what basis can you complain, if that person is legally recognised as a woman?

OP, I'm very sorry to hear about your experience. I'm not prepared to go into details of my childhood on here but, suffice to say, my experiences have led me to believe that the minuscule minority of men who may ID as women or whatever they like are the least of my worries in the wider scheme of things.

Kylie is being trans a mental health issue equivalent to say, bi-polar where you could go without drug treatments if you wanted, but would have to accept that the consequences of refusing that medical treatment might be unwanted social and physical effects? Just as a trans person who didn’t want to take drugs would need to live with that? Both people would be entitled to make that choice, but would need to accept that there are consequences.

It’s unfair on both they suffer because their health is not the same as a “typical” person. But that’s life? As unfortunate and personally difficult as it must be.

Neither the bi-polar person or the trans person deserves to have their existence denied, but neither can say they are “the same” as someone without their specific issue.

Trans people should be proud of being trans. Then it wouldn’t matter if they stopped taking hormones and “passing”.

HOW WOULD I BE ABLE TO COMPLAIN IF HE WAS LEGALLY ENTITLED TO BE THERE!!??

Round and round again.....

Many, many changing rooms do not have locked cubicles - I should know, my Swim Club holds meets at two of them!

Round and round again....

It is transphobic because there is an inherent assumption that the main reason a man would self-identify as a woman would be to gain access to women's spaces for abusive purposes

Okay then, so you will be able to explain why men who do not live as women full time have a harmless need to temporarily ID as women & use womens spaces then?

Why do they need to, when they DONT live full time as women?

Because thats what the GRA is about, ectending trans rights to people who are not full time trans.

Who needs this? Exactly?

Neither do I want to in any way support a movement whose response to being disagreed with is routinely dismissive,

So sinceyouask you dislike being dismissed but are also opposed to open consultation.

Are these two points not mutually exclusive?

Suited - I am legally entitled to be in this Pret A Manger where I am right now. I am not permitted to start behaving in a way that makes anyone else feel uncomfortable. If I suddenly start obviously staring at someone and they complain or other customers notice, I can hardly defend myself by the argument that I have the right to be here.

Changing rooms are for changing (mainly in cubicles) - not an opportunity for exposing yourself or wandering around naked and anyone who does this would be seem as questionable. It would be illegal for anyone to attack someone anywhere.

Signed. Because I think a proper debate is long overdue.

This petition is calling for a debate, - not to round up all Trans people and dump them on a prison ship.

A DEBATE

More information is available here:

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html