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Pedants' corner

Stephen Fry's attack on Pedant's Corner

82 replies

PadDad · 15/01/2009 19:31

From a longer essay on Stephen Fry's blog www.stephenfry.com/blog/#more-64

"... Sadly, desperately sadly, the only people who seem to bother with language in public today bother with it in quite the wrong way. They write letters to broadcasters and newspapers in which they are rude and haughty about other people?s usage and in which they show off their own superior ?knowledge? of how language should be.

I hate that, and I particularly hate the fact that so many of these pedants assume that I?m on their side. When asked to join in a ?let?s persuade this supermarket chain to get rid of their ?five items or less? sign? I never join in. Yes, I am aware of the technical distinction between ?less? and ?fewer?, and between ?uninterested? and ?disinterested? and ?infer? and ?imply?, but none of these are of importance to me.

?None of these are of importance,? I wrote there, you?ll notice ? the old pedantic me would have insisted on ?none of them is of importance?. Well I?m glad to say I?ve outgrown that silly approach to language. Oscar Wilde, and there have been few greater and more complete lords of language in the past thousand years, once included with a manuscript he was delivering to his publishers a compliment slip in which he had scribbled the injunction: ?I?ll leave you to tidy up the woulds and shoulds, wills and shalls, thats and whiches &c.? Which gives us all encouragement to feel less guilty, don?t you think?

There are all kinds of pedants around with more time to read and imitate Lynne Truss and John Humphrys than to write poems, love-letters, novels and stories it seems. They whip out their Sharpies and take away and add apostrophes from public signs, shake their heads at prepositions which end sentences and mutter at split infinitives and misspellings, but do they bubble and froth and slobber and cream with joy at language? Do they ever let the tripping of the tips of their tongues against the tops of their teeth transport them to giddy euphoric bliss? Do they ever yoke impossible words together for the sound-sex of it? Do they use language to seduce, charm, excite, please, affirm and tickle those they talk to? Do they? I doubt it. They?re too farting busy sneering at a greengrocer?s less than perfect use of the apostrophe. Well sod them to Hades. They think they?re guardians of language. They?re no more guardians of language than the Kennel Club is the guardian of dogkind.

The worst of this sorry bunch of semi-educated losers are those who seem to glory in being irritated by nouns becoming verbs. How dense and deaf to language development do you have to be? If you don?t like nouns becoming verbs, then for heaven?s sake avoid Shakespeare who made a doing-word out of a thing-word every chance he got. He TABLED the motion and CHAIRED the meeting in which nouns were made verbs. New examples from our time might take some getting used to: ?He actioned it that day? for instance might strike some as a verbing too far, but we have been sanctioning, envisioning, propositioning and stationing for a long time, so why not ?action?? ?Because it?s ugly,? whinge the pedants. It?s only ugly because it?s new and you don?t like it. Ugly in the way Picasso, Stravinsky and Eliot were once thought ugly and before them Monet, Mahler and Baudelaire. Pedants will also claim, with what I am sure is eye-popping insincerity and shameless disingenuousness, that their fight is only for ?clarity?. This is all very well, but there is no doubt what ?Five items or less? means, just as only a dolt can?t tell from the context and from the age and education of the speaker, whether ?disinterested? is used in the ?proper? sense of non-partisan, or in the ?improper? sense of uninterested. No, the claim to be defending language for the sake of clarity almost never, ever holds water. Nor does the idea that following grammatical rules in language demonstrates clarity of thought and intelligence of mind. Having said this, I admit that if you want to communicate well for the sake of passing an exam or job interview, then it is obvious that wildly original and excessively heterodox language could land you in the soup. I think what offends examiners and employers when confronted with extremely informal, unpunctuated and haywire language is the implication of not caring that underlies it. You slip into a suit for an interview and you dress your language up too. You can wear what you like linguistically or sartorially when you?re at home or with friends, but most people accept the need to smarten up under some circumstances ? it?s only considerate. But that is an issue of fitness, of suitability, it has nothing to do with correctness. There no right language or wrong language any more than are right or wrong clothes. Context, convention and circumstance are all.

I don?t deny that a small part of me still clings to a ghastly Radio 4/newspaper-letter-writer reader pedantry, but I fight against it in much the same way I try to fight against my gluttony, anger, selfishness and other vices. ..."

OP posts:
Katisha · 15/01/2009 19:33

Enjoy!

skramblenotdieting · 15/01/2009 19:36

I thunk he putted it very well

.

Tinker · 15/01/2009 19:37

Oh, bravo! Applause, applause! He is so right.

policywonk · 15/01/2009 19:37

He's got a point ain't he?

I get irritated by people who refuse to accept language evolution - especially people who shriek 'Americanism!' at every opportunity.

OTOH I do wish people knew the original meanings of 'disinterested', 'discrete' and so on; useful words (well, useful meanings) are being lost.

Desiderata · 15/01/2009 19:39

He should have used more paragraphing ..

ilovelovemydog · 15/01/2009 19:39

referendums is my personal bug bear! It's: referenda...

What is pendant's corner?

PuppyMonkey · 15/01/2009 19:39

Fab bit of writing..

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 19:42

It's an easy target, though. Pedantry is daft. He gets to seem clever by attacking a caricature of stupidity. Just like he gets to seem clever on QI by being less daft than Alan Davies. He annoys me.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 19:43

He is right - language does and should change. And I hate Lynne Truss's nonsense book with a vengeance. BUT there are things which I find unpleasant, unnecessarily ambiguous or jargony, clumsy, inelegant, etc, and I'll happily let off steam about them, the way that other people might rant about types of shoe.

Language registers, as he notes, are important, and I think most of us are polyglots in terms of the language we use at work, home, extended family, etc. Standard English should be taught to children as a tool for communication with people who may not know or understand their local dialect/idiolect. But even Standard English (and by this I Do Not mean RP) allows for much more flexibility than people realise.

I'd lay bets, though, that Stephen Fry hates management-speak with a vengeance.

We should get David Crystal on here as a guest. He's fab.

skramblenotdieting · 15/01/2009 19:44

Take a look around ilovelovemydog your are in that very corner .

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 19:45

Nowt wrong with referendums. we've borrowed lots of Latin words and given them English grammatical suffixes. What about magistrates, for example?

Thready, while I see your point, I think the massive sales of Eats, Shoots and Flamin' Leaves shows this isn't quite the straw man you're suggesting.

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 19:47

It is a straw man, though. Just a popular one.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 19:49

When does a popular straw man become so popular it stops being a straw man, though?

scaredoflove · 15/01/2009 19:50

Is it wrong to be turned on by reading that? I can hear his voice and feel his intelligence and have come over all unnecessary

I heart Mr Fry

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 19:50

Re Wiz of Oz, I was trying to think of an 'If I only had a brain' joke about pedants.

Failed though.

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 19:51

Straw man is weak set of arguments for possibly untenable position? Would be straw even if everyone believed it I think.

beansontoast · 15/01/2009 19:52

aye!

foxytocin · 15/01/2009 19:52

aye.

di man talk sense.

Notreallycutoutforthis · 15/01/2009 19:52

Actioning will always be fugly and the preserve of sad middle-managers who will never write anything of literary value.

And we don't all want to be gr'eengrocers.

Other than that I do love SF...

PadDad · 15/01/2009 19:53

Scaredoflove, you can get even more turned on by subscribing to Stephen Fry's podcast and hearing him read those very words.

I listened to it today on my iPod, while endlessly placing DD on the tiny slide and the trampoline in her toddler group.

Wasn't turned on, tho.

OP posts:
Notreallycutoutforthis · 15/01/2009 19:54

But policywonk - what really fucks me off about americanisms is that perfectly acceptable words (e.g.envisaging) are ignored in favour of 'envisioning'. Grrr.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 19:57

Interesting, though, thready - a lone voice of rational argument in the wilderness? Maybe I didn't mean straw man, then - but I think he probably gets people being uber-pedantic a la John Honey, and assuming, as he says, that he agrees with them. That would annoy me too. And it might well be worth airing. Crystal's anti-Truss book didn't sell half so well, I'll wager, despite the fact that he actually knows what he's talking about.

I'm not sure Stephen Fry is really clever - I think it's a useful persona for him, but it's gameshow clever, iyswim?

mrsgboring · 15/01/2009 19:58

But isn't "referendum" not a noun but a gerund and therefore "referendums" is correct anyway? (I don't really know or care, I just learnt this off Radio 4 as a phrase to flash around)

I agree with Habbibu that this isn't a straw man. I grew up in an oppressive, grammarian household and can spot it in many others - including some poor seven year olds of my acquaintance.

I am pretty sure I can dig out a 1990s essay by one S. Fry on the horrors of making verbs out of nouns, mind you...

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 19:59

He is fantastically knowledgeable. But, yes, gameshow clever.

AuraofDora · 15/01/2009 19:59

dislike stephen fry intensely and it grieves me to agree with him, but i do

pw it's true it's an evolving living thing and that is how it should be..