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Pedants' corner

Stephen Fry's attack on Pedant's Corner

82 replies

PadDad · 15/01/2009 19:31

From a longer essay on Stephen Fry's blog www.stephenfry.com/blog/#more-64

"... Sadly, desperately sadly, the only people who seem to bother with language in public today bother with it in quite the wrong way. They write letters to broadcasters and newspapers in which they are rude and haughty about other people?s usage and in which they show off their own superior ?knowledge? of how language should be.

I hate that, and I particularly hate the fact that so many of these pedants assume that I?m on their side. When asked to join in a ?let?s persuade this supermarket chain to get rid of their ?five items or less? sign? I never join in. Yes, I am aware of the technical distinction between ?less? and ?fewer?, and between ?uninterested? and ?disinterested? and ?infer? and ?imply?, but none of these are of importance to me.

?None of these are of importance,? I wrote there, you?ll notice ? the old pedantic me would have insisted on ?none of them is of importance?. Well I?m glad to say I?ve outgrown that silly approach to language. Oscar Wilde, and there have been few greater and more complete lords of language in the past thousand years, once included with a manuscript he was delivering to his publishers a compliment slip in which he had scribbled the injunction: ?I?ll leave you to tidy up the woulds and shoulds, wills and shalls, thats and whiches &c.? Which gives us all encouragement to feel less guilty, don?t you think?

There are all kinds of pedants around with more time to read and imitate Lynne Truss and John Humphrys than to write poems, love-letters, novels and stories it seems. They whip out their Sharpies and take away and add apostrophes from public signs, shake their heads at prepositions which end sentences and mutter at split infinitives and misspellings, but do they bubble and froth and slobber and cream with joy at language? Do they ever let the tripping of the tips of their tongues against the tops of their teeth transport them to giddy euphoric bliss? Do they ever yoke impossible words together for the sound-sex of it? Do they use language to seduce, charm, excite, please, affirm and tickle those they talk to? Do they? I doubt it. They?re too farting busy sneering at a greengrocer?s less than perfect use of the apostrophe. Well sod them to Hades. They think they?re guardians of language. They?re no more guardians of language than the Kennel Club is the guardian of dogkind.

The worst of this sorry bunch of semi-educated losers are those who seem to glory in being irritated by nouns becoming verbs. How dense and deaf to language development do you have to be? If you don?t like nouns becoming verbs, then for heaven?s sake avoid Shakespeare who made a doing-word out of a thing-word every chance he got. He TABLED the motion and CHAIRED the meeting in which nouns were made verbs. New examples from our time might take some getting used to: ?He actioned it that day? for instance might strike some as a verbing too far, but we have been sanctioning, envisioning, propositioning and stationing for a long time, so why not ?action?? ?Because it?s ugly,? whinge the pedants. It?s only ugly because it?s new and you don?t like it. Ugly in the way Picasso, Stravinsky and Eliot were once thought ugly and before them Monet, Mahler and Baudelaire. Pedants will also claim, with what I am sure is eye-popping insincerity and shameless disingenuousness, that their fight is only for ?clarity?. This is all very well, but there is no doubt what ?Five items or less? means, just as only a dolt can?t tell from the context and from the age and education of the speaker, whether ?disinterested? is used in the ?proper? sense of non-partisan, or in the ?improper? sense of uninterested. No, the claim to be defending language for the sake of clarity almost never, ever holds water. Nor does the idea that following grammatical rules in language demonstrates clarity of thought and intelligence of mind. Having said this, I admit that if you want to communicate well for the sake of passing an exam or job interview, then it is obvious that wildly original and excessively heterodox language could land you in the soup. I think what offends examiners and employers when confronted with extremely informal, unpunctuated and haywire language is the implication of not caring that underlies it. You slip into a suit for an interview and you dress your language up too. You can wear what you like linguistically or sartorially when you?re at home or with friends, but most people accept the need to smarten up under some circumstances ? it?s only considerate. But that is an issue of fitness, of suitability, it has nothing to do with correctness. There no right language or wrong language any more than are right or wrong clothes. Context, convention and circumstance are all.

I don?t deny that a small part of me still clings to a ghastly Radio 4/newspaper-letter-writer reader pedantry, but I fight against it in much the same way I try to fight against my gluttony, anger, selfishness and other vices. ..."

OP posts:
BarcodeZebra · 15/01/2009 21:10

You can only play games with language if you know how to use it correctly in the first place.

The analogy would be with abstract artists. How many times have you looked at an abstract painting and thought, "I could do that"? The fact of the matter is that if you can't draw then you probably couldn't. The classic examples of this are Jackson Pollock and Mark Rothko. Both of whom, as I hope you can see, could draw a bit.

My point is that unless you know the rules you are incapable of breaking them with wit and verve. Stephen Fry is witty and can write well. He is persuasive but not necessarily right.

midnightexpress · 15/01/2009 21:12

I'm a lexicographer by trade (just as exciting as it sounds) and most of the big publishers use the -ize spelling as standard these days.

In fact I have spent much of this afternon sorting out balkanize/balkanise/Balkanise/Balkanize/balkanization (and so on). The entry is now thoroughly balkanized (note the spelling).

midnightexpress · 15/01/2009 21:13

BZ, is that why Damien Hurst is so crap?

BarcodeZebra · 15/01/2009 21:15

Yep.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 21:17

I agree up to a point, BCZ, but the hardcore Lynn Truss/John Honey type pedants would have you believe that there is a hard and fast set of rules to be broken, and language is much more fuzzy and dynamic than that.

eemie · 15/01/2009 21:23

Can anyone whose Latin is more recent than mine tell us whether Ilovelovemydog is correct or mistaken re: referendum (and, for that matter, ultimatum)?

I like Fry's message, though. I suppose I shouldn't criticise him for his misuse of 'decimate' if that's his attitude ('half the population of Ireland was decimated' on University Challenge)

Aitch · 15/01/2009 21:25

i rather enjoyed LT's book, and i do like reading newspaper style books, but i have a brian like a sieve so don't take all the info in and therefore don't consider myself a true pedant.

however, i have come onto this thread to applaud threadworm's MAGNIFICENT coining of the faint praise 'gameshow clever'. i am SO 'avin' that.

BarcodeZebra · 15/01/2009 21:27

I didn't say he was wrong, Hab. Just not necessarily right.

He's clearly writing - because he can - to get a reaction. One has to assume, therefore, that he probably doesn't entirely agree with himself.

Of course language and it's evolution is fuzzy all I'm saying is that the rules are necessary for all the reasons that we discuss here at length day-in-day-out but also because they are the sign posts that allow us to see a fine writer playing fast and loose with them.

An author making a character say something in a grammatically incorrect way is adding something to the text that isn't actually written down. It's a simplistic example, I know, but you get my drift.

What is it that makes Ulysses great rather than a disastrous proof reader's mistake?

midnightexpress · 15/01/2009 21:29

at misuse of it's

PadDad · 15/01/2009 21:30

As far as I know, the New Yorker magazine is famously the 'guardian' of grammar and style for American writing.

It's amusing to read their 'Bad Comma' review of Lynne Truss's Eats, Shoots and Leaves at www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/06/28/040628crbo_books1.

They don't savage her for the differences between American and British grammar, but for her own inconsistencies.

OP posts:
BarcodeZebra · 15/01/2009 21:32

Gah! "It's"

Now I have to shoot myself in the head AGAIN...

MrsFry · 15/01/2009 21:36

'brian like a sieve'

notreallycutoutforthis · 15/01/2009 21:37

Wow PadDad - I followed your link - I am cowed.

[not]

Aitch · 15/01/2009 21:38

see, paddad, that review looks to my untutored eye like wankery of the highest order.

Aitch · 15/01/2009 21:39

see, paddad, that review looks to my untutored eye like wankery of the highest order.

Scum · 15/01/2009 21:45

Just to be pedantic accurate, I think Habbibu was the coiner of the phrase your so avin, actually, aitch. Credit where credit's due and all that.

PadDad · 15/01/2009 21:50

I didn't say the New Yorker review WASN'T wankery of the highest order.

I said it was amusing to read.

'Tis.

OP posts:
Aitch · 15/01/2009 21:52

was she, scum? she knows what she's doing, that habbibu. she forum clever, that one.

Aitch · 15/01/2009 21:55

actually, i dind't find it amusing to read, though paddad. i thought it was horribly difficult. i suppose it comes down to communication in the end. or should, imo.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 21:58

Thank you, Scum, for defending my honour (!)

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 21:59

In fact, DC's blog is so good it deserves a thread of its own...

Aitch · 15/01/2009 22:00

oh good. sorry about the 'velope. did you get a shock? i could tell you how we got them, but i'd have to kill you.

Aitch · 15/01/2009 22:02

hab... he's welsh. and then he moved to liverpool...

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 22:03

I just reckoned you'd climbed up onto the roof, disguised as a Fathers4Justice furry animal, and sent a net down through a skylight to scoop a few up. If it's didn't involve ropes and dressing up I don't want to know.

RubyRioja · 15/01/2009 22:03

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