Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Pedants' corner

Stephen Fry's attack on Pedant's Corner

82 replies

PadDad · 15/01/2009 19:31

From a longer essay on Stephen Fry's blog www.stephenfry.com/blog/#more-64

"... Sadly, desperately sadly, the only people who seem to bother with language in public today bother with it in quite the wrong way. They write letters to broadcasters and newspapers in which they are rude and haughty about other people?s usage and in which they show off their own superior ?knowledge? of how language should be.

I hate that, and I particularly hate the fact that so many of these pedants assume that I?m on their side. When asked to join in a ?let?s persuade this supermarket chain to get rid of their ?five items or less? sign? I never join in. Yes, I am aware of the technical distinction between ?less? and ?fewer?, and between ?uninterested? and ?disinterested? and ?infer? and ?imply?, but none of these are of importance to me.

?None of these are of importance,? I wrote there, you?ll notice ? the old pedantic me would have insisted on ?none of them is of importance?. Well I?m glad to say I?ve outgrown that silly approach to language. Oscar Wilde, and there have been few greater and more complete lords of language in the past thousand years, once included with a manuscript he was delivering to his publishers a compliment slip in which he had scribbled the injunction: ?I?ll leave you to tidy up the woulds and shoulds, wills and shalls, thats and whiches &c.? Which gives us all encouragement to feel less guilty, don?t you think?

There are all kinds of pedants around with more time to read and imitate Lynne Truss and John Humphrys than to write poems, love-letters, novels and stories it seems. They whip out their Sharpies and take away and add apostrophes from public signs, shake their heads at prepositions which end sentences and mutter at split infinitives and misspellings, but do they bubble and froth and slobber and cream with joy at language? Do they ever let the tripping of the tips of their tongues against the tops of their teeth transport them to giddy euphoric bliss? Do they ever yoke impossible words together for the sound-sex of it? Do they use language to seduce, charm, excite, please, affirm and tickle those they talk to? Do they? I doubt it. They?re too farting busy sneering at a greengrocer?s less than perfect use of the apostrophe. Well sod them to Hades. They think they?re guardians of language. They?re no more guardians of language than the Kennel Club is the guardian of dogkind.

The worst of this sorry bunch of semi-educated losers are those who seem to glory in being irritated by nouns becoming verbs. How dense and deaf to language development do you have to be? If you don?t like nouns becoming verbs, then for heaven?s sake avoid Shakespeare who made a doing-word out of a thing-word every chance he got. He TABLED the motion and CHAIRED the meeting in which nouns were made verbs. New examples from our time might take some getting used to: ?He actioned it that day? for instance might strike some as a verbing too far, but we have been sanctioning, envisioning, propositioning and stationing for a long time, so why not ?action?? ?Because it?s ugly,? whinge the pedants. It?s only ugly because it?s new and you don?t like it. Ugly in the way Picasso, Stravinsky and Eliot were once thought ugly and before them Monet, Mahler and Baudelaire. Pedants will also claim, with what I am sure is eye-popping insincerity and shameless disingenuousness, that their fight is only for ?clarity?. This is all very well, but there is no doubt what ?Five items or less? means, just as only a dolt can?t tell from the context and from the age and education of the speaker, whether ?disinterested? is used in the ?proper? sense of non-partisan, or in the ?improper? sense of uninterested. No, the claim to be defending language for the sake of clarity almost never, ever holds water. Nor does the idea that following grammatical rules in language demonstrates clarity of thought and intelligence of mind. Having said this, I admit that if you want to communicate well for the sake of passing an exam or job interview, then it is obvious that wildly original and excessively heterodox language could land you in the soup. I think what offends examiners and employers when confronted with extremely informal, unpunctuated and haywire language is the implication of not caring that underlies it. You slip into a suit for an interview and you dress your language up too. You can wear what you like linguistically or sartorially when you?re at home or with friends, but most people accept the need to smarten up under some circumstances ? it?s only considerate. But that is an issue of fitness, of suitability, it has nothing to do with correctness. There no right language or wrong language any more than are right or wrong clothes. Context, convention and circumstance are all.

I don?t deny that a small part of me still clings to a ghastly Radio 4/newspaper-letter-writer reader pedantry, but I fight against it in much the same way I try to fight against my gluttony, anger, selfishness and other vices. ..."

OP posts:
foxytocin · 15/01/2009 20:00

a gerund is a noun ending in 'ing'. as in 'actioning'

mrsgboring · 15/01/2009 20:00

Cross posted with everyone re. expression straw man.

mrsgboring · 15/01/2009 20:02

foxytocin, I meant it's a Latin gerund and hence would take a Latin gerund ending.

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 20:05

The Crystal book sounds interesting. But Habbibu, you are my favourite guardian of the English language. I think you should write a book -- 'Eats, Shoots, and Leaves it to Intelligent Discretion'.

Scum · 15/01/2009 20:06

Do national treasures come any more treasurable than the lovely Fry?

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 20:09

I'd have to go and have a fight about "an historical" with the genius who taught me everything I know first.

Seriously, though - read some Crystal stuff - he really knows what he's talking about, and I just model myself on him. Jean Aitchison's "Language Change: Progress or Decay" is also brilliant.

It really did bug me when LT's book sold so well and had all that fuss, when proper books by people who do this stuff for a living, and are brilliantly written, get ignored.

EffiePerine · 15/01/2009 20:13

he has a point (though could have put it more succinctly )

David Crystal would be great as a MN guest (and more interesting than dragging out the langue and parole arguments again)

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 20:17

"though could have put it more succinctly". No, I don't think he could. I'm fond of Mr Fry, but I think he's physically incapable of being succinct.

EffiePerine · 15/01/2009 20:18
Grin
PadDad · 15/01/2009 20:34

Habbibu points out Stephen Fry is incapable of being succinct.

Later on in the very long essay (Don't Mind Your Language www.stephenfry.com/blog/2008/11/04/don%E2%80%99t-mind-your-language%E2%80%A6/#comments), Stephen Fry writes:

"... Convention exists, of course it does, but convention is no more a register of rightness or wrongness than etiquette is, it?s just another way of saying usage: convention is a privately agreed usage rather than a publicly evolving one. Conventions alter too, like life. Things that are kept to purity of line, in the Kennel Club manner, develop all the ghastly illnesses and deformations of inbreeding and lack of vital variation.

Imagine if we all spoke the same language, fabulous as it is, as Dickens? Imagine if the structure, meaning and usage of language was always the same as when Swift and Pope were alive. Superficially appealing as an idea for about five seconds, but horrifying the more you think about it.

If you are the kind of person who insists on this and that ?correct use? I hope I can convince you to abandon your pedantry. Dive into the open flowing waters and leave the stagnant canals be.

But above all let there be pleasure. Let there be textural delight, let there be silken words and flinty words and sodden speeches and soaking speeches and crackling utterance and utterance that quivers and wobbles like rennet. Let there be rapid firecracker phrases and language that oozes like a lake of lava. Words are your birthright. Unlike music, painting, dance and raffia work, you don?t have to be taught any part of language or buy any equipment to use it, all the power of it was in you from the moment the head of daddy?s little wiggler fused with the wall of mummy?s little bubble. So if you?ve got it, use it.

Don?t be afraid of it, don?t believe it belongs to anyone else, don?t let anyone bully you into believing that there are rules and secrets of grammar and verbal deployment that you are not privy to. Don?t be humiliated by dinosaurs into thinking yourself inferior because you can?t spell broccoli or moccasins. Just let the words fly from your lips and your pen. Give them rhythm and depth and height and silliness. Give them filth and form and noble stupidity.

Words are free and all words, light and frothy, firm and sculpted as they may be, bear the history of their passage from lip to lip over thousands of years. How they feel to us now tells us whole stories of our ancestors. ..."

OP posts:
policywonk · 15/01/2009 20:35

at Aura hating SF. Isn't that illegal?

Notreally... what winds me up is the knee-jerk reaction against 'z' spellings and so on - people who accuse other people of being ungrammatical because they've written 'organization'!

foxytocin · 15/01/2009 20:36

succint is a like having a sandwich at your desk for lunch.

Fry doesn't look like a sandwich kind of man.

foxytocin · 15/01/2009 20:36

succinct is a like having a sandwich at your desk for lunch.

Fry doesn't look like a sandwich kind of man.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 20:38
Habbibu · 15/01/2009 20:39

And verbose is rather like Mr Creosote. Not sure SF has found a happy medium!

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 20:44

He does succulent rather than succinct -- all these plumply rude botty words. Like " ... bubble and froth and slobber and cream with joy at language? Do they ever let the tripping of the tips of their tongues against the tops of their teeth transport them to giddy euphoric bliss?"

He's been doing it for about 20 years now.

notreallycutoutforthis · 15/01/2009 20:49

Back @ policywonk - but doesn't accepting z endings feel like accepting microsoft into your heart?

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 20:51

Agree that Microsoft is a real threat to UK English. But -ize has been a legit variation in UK English for a long time (pre-Microsoft), I think.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 20:51

I have a feeling that z endings are not American at all - hold on...

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 20:52

Ah - I was half right - here.

Threadworm · 15/01/2009 20:52

In OED, 'organisation' is given as the variation, and 'organization' as the standard.

Habbibu · 15/01/2009 20:55

Yup - the greek formation is "ize". I mean, obv in Greek alphabet, so it's partly moot, but I presume it reflects a voiced pronunciation, which is more typically "Z".

midnightexpress · 15/01/2009 21:02

I'm going to bombard him with estate agents' details.

I do agree with a lot of what he's saying, but he does go on. Like Threadworm, I think QI is just a vehicle for him to show off his cleverness (as opposed to, say, entertainment). I've gone right off him since it started.

Jean Aitchison is fabadabadoo.

notreallycutoutforthis · 15/01/2009 21:07

I'm always up for a variant on the American standard [drunk fighting emoticon]

reikizen · 15/01/2009 21:10

I love him, he's so lovely.