Pronunciation of water

[Machiavellian]

To me it's wor-ter. I keep hearing 'wor-eh'. Is this not lazy? Why is the t being excluded? Am I being snobbish for thinking it sounds so lazy and uneducated?

Great, thanks.

This reminds me of the fun we had reading rhyming story books to our children. Most of them were written by English writers and there were times I read something in my NI accent, only for one of the kids to say 'But that doesn't rhyme ...', usually something like 'car' and 'baa' and then I'd have to try out my best English accent😆

I'm mostly with you OP . Except I can't hear that R in the middle , only at the end? Why is the glottal stop so popular I wonder....I mean it must be harder/ more uncomfortable to block off your airway in the middle of the word? Just a matter of taste I suppose.

Oh I hear you, been there 😂
"...but Mammy, gopher doesn't rhyme with sofa..."
Because they don't in my Irish accent.

In newcastle we wouldn't pronounce the t in the middle of a word.

Yes they are- the “r” in “start” and “park” is not pronounced by non-rhotic speakers. It just elongates the a.

Speak for yourself. I can speak broad Scots with my Granny but would never use it in the office. All my “t”s are clearly pronounced in professional environments no matter whether I am speaking to a fellow Scot or an English person.

Which is what I meant a few pages back about being able to speak formal English as well as the dialect of your own place or all the other bits that you've picked up from people you've known, from all over. I was told I have a superiority complex. Now I'm wondering how to say 'Tant pis' in Latin.

I know someone from Newcastle. She speaks standard English most of the time, sounding the 't', and with a Newcastle accent. Now and again she speaks with a stronger/broader accent and then she uses the glottal stop.

A good one is murder. We Scots say murdur. With non rhotic speakers, it sounds more like muhduh.

To me, muhduh sounds more Scottish?

I am now wondering how phonics is taught in Scotland (and anywhere else I guess). Here in my part of the SE ur and er are the same sound.

The er and ar sounds in phonics are taught differently where I am in Ireland...by which I mean my children were told to ignore that bit of the Jolly Phonics recording (English accented) and the local pronunciation was substituted instead.

It's murdur here too, definitely not muhduh as the r's are pronounced.

Water or (wau turr) in my hiberno -english accent was the most difficult thing to order Stateside when we lived there .One time in Napa Valley the poor waitress , after much deliberation brought me a bottle of port wine and asked me 'is this what you want or porter? ' I mostly always got my kids to order the 'waaadah 'or H20 as I often added to avoid any confusion.

Yes, er and ar are different here too. Or did you mean er and ur are different?

Sorry, I meant the ar and er sounds are taught differently to the way they're presented on the English recording, ie the er and ar sounds are taught differently in Ireland to the way they're taught in England.
I can't remember ur being taught though I suppose it was.

I wish we all knew and could type in the International Phonetic Alphabet, it would make these threads so much clearer!

It definitely would!

Ah that makes sense.

South east London / Surrey hybrid accent here

Wau-er
Unless I'm in a situation where I need to sound better (presentation, on the phone etc) it's wau-ter then.

I'm not a chav, of lower class, or lazy.
Middle class, degree educated woman here. There's no need for the faux shock of 'gosh' when you realise that accents exist in the U.K.

The glottal stop is becoming more popular even in American accents. Dr Geoff Lindsey has done a video on it. His video on the intrusive R might also be enlightening. I think he discusses R more generally at some point.

I always recommend him, he does such great videos on pronunciation, grammar, and speech rhythm with real life examples.

I've noticed often on Mumsnet that English non-rhotic speakers seem very unaware of the fact that this is a letter, normally representing a sound, that they skip when they speak. I have no issue with it, but it's very odd to me when people don't notice that other accents are different, do pronounce the R, and that it's therefore not standard to use R to show no sound. Very often people will write pronunciation guides where it's obvious that they're using R to represent a long vowel sound, which I might write as "ah" or "oh" (I have a rhotic accent). Always causes endless confusion and I'm surprised that they can't think to use a more standard way to explain their pronunciation since the forum isn't purely local to where they live.

I agree that you cannot say that an accent or dialect is incorrect or an incorrect way of speaking. You can say that it's harder to understand for people who don't speak it, and advocate for a more toned down or standard language in other settings, but it's not incorrect.

I grew up in the south east but don't live there anymore.

Dropping the T was the traditional cockney/working class pronunciation. It's one way you tell if someone comes from a working class background, even if they have money.

I think people tend to associate it with being thick/uneducated because of its origins as a working class accent.

I've noticed often on Mumsnet that English non-rhotic speakers seem very unaware of the fact that this is a letter, normally representing a sound, that they skip when they speak. I have no issue with it, but it's very odd to me when people don't notice that other accents are different, do pronounce the R, and that it's therefore not standard to use R to show no sound.

it doesn't make no sound though, it affects the sound of the vowel before it. Lots of letters do that.

It's equally common for rhotic speakers to be unable to grasp the non-rhotic accent or notice that other accents are different. It's obvious when it's a non-rhotic speaker showing the pronunciation of something by using an R which, to them, is perfectly sensible. you can't just go blaming non-rhotic speakers for being "ignorant" when it works both ways.

If the R in park makes a sound in a non-rhotic accent because it lengthens the vowel, then the T in water isn't eliminated either when it's a glottal stop as wa'er sounding different to waer.

Fine for non-rhotic speakers to use the R to indicate a lengthened vowel, but most English speaker are rhotic, so using a H would work for everyone and avoid the confusion.

Watt-er. I think it's mainly down to accents. I'm Scottish so don't stick in extra Rs or leave them out of words.

Fine for non-rhotic speakers to use the R to indicate a lengthened vowel, but most English speaker are rhotic, so using a H would work for everyone and avoid the confusion.

Agree wholeheartedly with you @WickieRoy and with @banivani