Son is failing to launch

[SOS2023]

I know this is a familiar problem on this board as I have looked at past threads. They don't seem to get updated though, so I don't know what has happened in these cases.

Advance warning - this is long.

Our situation - DS 22. Dropped out before A levels because thought he'd fail, we were given no warning and no chance of giving him support.

He had some therapy and was assessed as having ADHD and was also told possible autism, but as the years I think he shows more autistic traits than as a teen. He refuses ADHD medication saying it will make his sleep worse. He sleeps a lot.

Did some hospitality work, got an office job because he was sick of hospitality.
Then we think he was fired from the office job, though he didn't express it clearly.

He spent much of lockdown gaming and I think he was relieved to do that.

Then he got another hospitality job through a friend which he's done for a while, but asked us to pay for a college course, he said he'd do part time hospitality around his course but has already decided not to.

Tbh I am dreading the start of the course next week. I am sure he will come back with a long face and say he hates either the place or the people.

In the middle of all this, he had a lovely girlfriend for about 8 months. He says she left for no reason, but I think the reasons were probably that she had her life much more together. She lives in a houseshare, earns fine enough to pay for that, and I know she's politely suggested he cleans him room. We get him to do that every Sunday.

I am particularly worried as I feel he's gone a bit incel - every comment about women's issues is met with remarks about how men have it worse.

His father asked him to put a shirt on at brunch today, resulting in huffing and puffing, but I noticed he's not shaving his armpits, I know some women don't either but his armpit hair is seriously long. His personal hygiene/grooming is okayish, I have told him to shower once though on a recent hot day.

His younger sister is starting to resent coming here - she's at uni and I think it's a shame. He's usually in his room though but creates an atmosphere.

He eats nothing but junk food, if he can't afford it he just goes hungry.

DH thinks we've done everything we can, I think maybe he needs more therapy. We will pay for that. We both think we should ask for rent. I know he has to pay attention to college but tbh it's one of those courses that's not likely to lead anywhere. But you can't tell your DC that can you?

Welcome all advice. It feels like a real risk that he won't want to move out for years and years. He does his own chores and most of ours. I think he sees that as easier than earning rent money.

I would be making it clear he has to work part time and do the course, he clearly thinks the course let's him off a job. If he complains about the course as you think he might I'd be saying he sticks it out or pays you back and use that to have a stern convo about Well what are you going to do because it's not going to be gaming in your room for ever". I'd be kind but also tell him he needs to move out to stretch his wings and for his own growth. Armpit hair - not seeing an issue, never known a guy to shave that unless perhaps an athlete or something.

He is exploiting your goodwill. You aren’t doing him any favours coddling him. Tough love.

Have you had a conversation about what he wants out of life? He needs to know this lifestyle cannot continue indefinitely, he will end up isolated, lacking life and employment skills and ability to be independent if this just goes on, and that it's your job to push him to get there because you care about him.

Does he have any friends who are modelling a better way? not in a 'why can't you be more like X' way, but 'See, X is living with people and holding down a job, it's not a huge leap'

It's encouraging that he has managed a relationship in this, but he needs to know he will not be able to sustain one without a wider relationship with the outside world and being able to take an interest in someone else and their interests - I get the impression that quite a lot of young men like your DS do get GFs from time to time, but it doesn't last long as most girls will tire of just sitting indoors while her BF plays video games and doesn't engage with the outside world.

My DS has ASD. He's struggling A LOT. I have changed both my expectations (& my hopes for him) accordingly.
I appreciate your Ds doesn't have a Dx but I'd look into this. Something's there.

It’s great he’s going to college and a media course could really open up some interesting creative work opportunities for him

Thank you for all the replies

To try to address individual points - I agree that the course could be a good opportuunity. DH asked in the car, why have I suddenly got worried this week? It's because DS suddenly announced he was giving up his zero hours contract, and I don't know where that leads - he won't ask for money or accept help with buying anything so where will he get any money?

Then he also said that he doesn't plan to do any networking. I would imagine most work experience etc will come through contacts so why make a decision like that? Is the course any good without it?

I wonder if he actually plans to stay with us for a few more years.

Pp asked if we'd asked him what he wants to do. "Something in media, set up a Youtube channel" etc is all he says. I'm not expecting anyone to have their life plan made up at 22 but I do expect some kind of short term plan, even if he said he'd wait tables over xmas holidays I'd feel more confident.

Pp also mentioned giving him till he's 25, but if he hasn't got plans to earn before then, it won't happen overnight. I see so many "help wanted" signs in pubs and cafes, now he's packing in a job he got through a mate and his previous job, he likely got fired so references might be an issue.

Re ASD diagnosis, I agree it's worth pursuing but if an adult won't go to a doctor, we can't force him. Interesting to hear there are benefits available - if that's the case then he might be okay at taking money in that form. I will mention that to him.

Re girlfriends, yes, I also thought it was a good sign but as far as I know, without being intrusive, she was disillusioned that he was such a gamer, was shocked by the state if his room when she stayed here.

I know they went to lots of free things but I think as soon as money came into it, it was a problem. I saw him put a fiver in his pocket one day when they were heading out for drinks. He doesn't drink alcohol, but he was home a few hours later so I can imagine he sat with his diet coke for five hours. He hadn't the money to date a girl with full time work. Good point that no relationship will last long in that scenario.

Re friends modelling a better way - he seems to have lost touch with them. He says the football group fell apart over money - I think he didn't want to play anymore. He has a really lovely friend the same age, working full time, also in a flatshare just a short walk from here, but they don't seem to meet any more. Other friends he says have ghosted him.

It could be depression of some form, or it could be that we were too soft. I really don't know. If it's ASD it would be key to know in order to support but as long as he doesn't want to to the doc, what can we do?

Finally, pp suggested he try meds for a while. He flatly refuses to try, even for a week. We asked at 17 and again recently. He says it's a flat no.

I had another thought today that's now troubling me. He seems very proud of himself for what he perceives as not asking for money and looking after himself. But the truth is, while he doesn't ask for money, he doesn't pay rent, he is living on junk food, barely leaving the house, gaming a lot. So he's not really looking after himself.

He irons DH's shirts every Sunday and is very proud of it and it makes a big deal of it. But it's a way to stay in the house without being asked to leave or to pay rent, perhaps.

Sending you courage OP. Also with a DS22 who is planning a new start tomorrow... it's a govt sponsored unfunded bootcamp - all online to do computing... we haven't cracked it but well done for getting some of the chores done. We get some support regarding clearing up after mealtimes. I don't want to derail your thread but I can tell you that throwing money at the problem won't work - DH supported him with £15k through uni no. 1 (accommodation including 1 year he signed and never got the keys when he failed his 2nd year!) I supported him through uni no. 2 (before he failed) £11k top up fees and private CBT. We both had money from inheritances now depleted. Between these he got a job in hospitality and suddenly turned a corner.
Now, he spends all time in his bedroom and has weird obsessions (vitamins by the bucketload). Barely sees daylight.
He has a diagnosis of low mood/borderline depression and refuses medication too. TBH I can't spend 100% time worrying about him, but in the next week or so we are going to come up with an ultimatum (or more, while this new thing is happening, introducing some more new stuff)... this is definitely a moment to be in agreement with your DH!

Smithfamilyrobindon

thsnk you. What sort of ultimatum are you thinking of?

That sounds good though, gaining a skill that’s in short supply? This course DS is doing is also free, but there’s a lot of media graduates out there battling for work.

We don’t plan on giving money to him. He might have saved to cover things like phone, gaming but atm I am just baffled by this announcement that he’s packing in work.

The reason we’re discussing paying for him to rent a room is that we don’t feel he shows any signs of being independent and if he has to live outside of a comfortable home, has to buy his own TV and games console etc that might make him focus more on the future.

If we knew he had a health condition, it would be different. But so many young men seem to get into this lifestyle, if it’s not just luck or happenstance that they get out of it, then what is it that gets them out?

Also in what way did your son turn a corner?

This all sounds so horribly familiar. My son is now in his forties and has spectacularly failed to launch. In his younger days he also had a few jobs that he was unable to hold onto which we now realise was because of ‘inappropriate’ remarks. His social skills can be fine, quite witty and dry, and then he will drop the most awful clanger! It’s like he’s holding up the mask and then its too heavy.
Looking back, what I wish more than anything, when he had the two psychological assessments going through school, that the word Asperger’s had been shared, uttered, written down and passed to us. I wouldn’t have been so bewildered by his behaviour, his inability to cooperate, how difficult he was to be around, the endless sulking and grudges.
My advice to you and your husband would be to drop all your previous expectations altogether. Read up and listen to as much as you can about the traits you think your son has. Two other young men in our family have similar traits to my son and they have done well in careers that have low social interaction ,computer stuff. Ask him what he thinks are his interests and strengths. Go slow. One solution is not going to fix everything. Remember he is looking at his peers and secretly worrying about why he is not launching and still at home.

His job in hospitality meant he had to get up, look presentable (but not overly so) and by so doing normal hours, his sleep went back to 'normal'. However, where his job was - local - great, but a membership only club, the customers by his account were obnoxious and wasted no time lording it over the staff... I know he is hyper sensitive but fairly sure he didn't make some of the stories up. His plan is to get a part-time job too. He really is a conundrum. When he goes out he gets aggressively age checked (we were with him once) - he doesn't look young but he is very slight. This adds to the "account" of woe.
I think we can only be hopeful that something clicks!

Please don't give your son money to support himself, if he earns it himself it will boost his confidence. If he's given up a job he's got to face the consequences of not working.
My hope would be that he mixes with other young people at college and realises at 22 he shouldn't be supported by mum and Dad.
My DS (18) went to work in low paid work in a massive factory during the lock down. It turned out to be the best thing that could have happened, he was working with lovely young hardworking Europeans living in house shares who were getting up early to get a bus to work doing all the overtime they could. My DS had a car, they were so jealous that he could drive to work, he ended up picking them all up to give them a lift. These were young men of the same age, grafters, some with young children.
It was a real eye opener for my son. He takes pride in earning his own money now and is saving for his first flat.

Nothing useful to add apart from- don’t know one man in my family that shaves his armpits . Would find that really odd.

Working in hospitality is a terrible option for an autistic person. It involves too much anxiety and masking. Ditto “networking”. I’d rather boil my head 😉

I had another thought today that's now troubling me. He seems very proud of himself for what he perceives as not asking for money and looking after himself. But the truth is, while he doesn't ask for money, he doesn't pay rent, he is living on junk food, barely leaving the house, gaming a lot. So he's not really looking after himself.

That’s a bit of an autistic red flag - literal thinking. He seems to have convinced himself that as long as he isn’t taking money from you, he’s doing OK, even if his lifestyle is really unhealthy (mentally and physically).

Re. Shaving armpit hair. It’s a thing nowadays, my 14-year-old shaves his. 😂

We have a ND 21 year old DS, and while he is doing OK at uni, I can see that he could so easily have gone the same direction as your son.

The thing that jumps out at me from your posts is how it seems you are 'finding things out' about your son's life, and habits and 'plans' (if that's what they can be called) in dribs and drabs/ snippets of conversations etc. You sound a bit scared of him & as if you and your DH are constantly skirting around, avoiding raising any questions?

I'd ignore the posters who are saying 'at 22 he should be paying rent/ working full time/ moving out' etc - especially if they have no experience with ND kids. I remember a friend advising me to assume that learning life skills may take 3-5 years longer for ND offspring, depending on their diagnosis etc. My DS, while independent, still gets in a tizz about getting buses in a new place, or parking the car, or dealing with his landlord etc.
What we found really helped for him was us spending time coaching him and developing goals and plans together. Lots of discussion about what he was interested in/ thought he wanted to do, and then 'road mapping' the stages for 1 month/ 3 months/ 6 months/ 1 year etc. We drew it all out on paper and he had it on a noticeboard. Somehow it helped him make sense of how what he was doing today/ this week/ this month contributed to a longer term picture.

Would your DS let you do this sort of thing OP? Talk about what he sees coming out of the media course? Where he sees himself going? Options as well as being a YouTuber (that was my DS's ambition too, but now he wants to go into filmmaking, which may be more reliable/ realistic).

Answering these in the order that makes most sense to tell the story

We have been researching about autism for a while, but if he doesn't want a diagnosis we're stuck. Also, he might not have any health problems, we don't know.

When he left school and went for the hospitality job, he seemed better and happier than now, or at school. He enjoyed meeting people older than him, he mentioned that in particular. He was playing football and swimming then too. He had local contacts to have drinks with.

When he got the office job, he was visibly unhappy right off the bat, and I get the impression the boss was a wanker - I totally believe this and I know what it's like to be the office junior being badly treated. Also, the friends from that first hospitality job didn't keep in touch and that upset him a lot.

But yes, lockdown was a visible relief to him, at least at the start, because he didn't realise it would go on for so long. This is what made me wonder re masking. I hide anxiety at work, it is hard.

Mary I'm worried he actually wants to stay till his 40s or later. I have a friend whose brother left the family home in his 40s purely because he found a woman who wanted to parent him. That didn't last and his parents refused to have him back, so he lives alone now and tries to drag my friend into everything - if the washing machine is broken, he wants her to call the landlord. I do not want this happening to DD!

If he gets a diagnosis and wants to stay with us, then given we know he can work and run a home, I'd still want him to go by, I dont know, 30, because how will he live when we are gone?

Just like your son, he chats away fine for a while and then drops a huge clanger. He used a word I find totally unacceptable the other day - a disablist term - and when I told him off, he said "it's only us here though, I wouldn't say it in public." I then had to explain that it was unacceptable to me...too long a story to say more!

Smith my son is now aggressively age checked too, on the rare occasion it applies. When he was eating proper food and doing sports, he wasn't. But since lockdown, he's lost weight and muscle, so is very slight in spite of the junk food. He seems to get lost in gaming and then realise he's hungry at 4am. Is it true that one ASD sign can be losing touch with your body sensations? It's good that your DS plans to get a job to do alongside training. How old is he?

Achey yes, we don't plan to give him money for random stuff, though we do pay DD rent as she's at uni. I think that's one area we agree. So yes, happy to pay his rent for a while, seems fair. But he has no interest in leaving.

Jelly interesting point re red flag. His grandparents just think "oh he's very young so still at the stage of thinking ironing 5 shirts on a Sunday is a big deal". My mum seems to find it all quite funny but she is concerned about his diet and lack of going out. My dad thinks he'll grow out of it.

Like DH, they think I should just leave it and see how things go.

The contrast between him and DD is stark.

To summarise his anti medication stance - I recently had consultation about redundancies at work. I cried with relief when I heard my job was safe. He gave me a big hug and said "mum, I'm so impressed with how you've coped through this. You don't need to take those pills". I haven't got the energy to explain that yes, I do need the pills. Okay, I would function without them but not to the point of doing a demanding job and enjoying life outside, and I want more for my life than just functioning.

Being judged by your son for taking meds is bizarre. But that's how anti meds he is. That said, he really wanted his Covid vaccine and took tests a lot, with no symptoms.

Legacy sorry, I didn't see your post.
DS has also become nervous of going anywhere new. I think this is lockdown legacy though.

In terms of finding out his plans - we talk a lot everyday but his decision to tell us he wouldn't work through college was a done deal, left it till the last minute to tell us for exactly that reason I expect.

Not sure what other things you mean - we did ask what went wrong with his girlfriend, he just cried a lot and didn't answer. We asked why no more football - he said they had issues over paying for it. We asked why he doesn't like to swim anymore and just get a shrug, I suspect it means he doesn't want to say. We ask after his friends, he says they ghosted, moved away etc.

I think it's better to let him volunteer information.

We would happily map out strategies and plans but he is adamant he doesn't need help with anything. If I say I'm worried he says "don't be silly, I'm fine".

I like a noticeboard for planning but he thinks I'm silly!

Stop with the armpit hair questioning! A quick search of MN posts will reveal that many men shave their armpit hair often because they sweat a lot.
Sorry SOS2023 I have no suggestions apart from don’t abandon him he still needs his parents love and guidance is all I can think.

id be upfront and tell him that 25 or 26 is when he needs to move out. It’s an idea to help him on his feet till this point, what with him being vulnerable. Be transparent about the cut off.

In your shoes I would finance a swimming/football membership to build up a life outside of the home and happy endorphins. Maybe he could get a social prescription through his Gp?

lay out rules for staying the next few years rent free .. being nice to his sister, rejoining swimming/football, eating family meals with you most evenings, giving the course good focus, saving a house deposit after the college course

Herewe so you think, don't ask him to move out?

Terrifict we have offered to pay for football, it's not even expensive. He just doesn't want to go. Swimming is on our family health club membership, he's able to go whenever he wants, it's all paid for. He can go alone or come with us.

Family meals - I won't go down that road as I think it's more infantilising. Plus, he says that he is an adult, he has the right to eat what he wants and he is paying for it. that's a fair point.

There is a fully stocked fridge and he knows he is welcome to eat with us whenever he likes. He could even just bung a ready meal in the oven if he doesn't want to eat what's on offer but it's all KFC etc. DH asks him every day and even asks what he'd like. (kitchen is his domain). Interestingly, DH works at home and has recently tried just knocking on his door and giving him a sandwich that's already made. He will eat it but only very specific things.

He did get fed at his current job but that's another thing I wonder, he has that change to deal with as well. He did mention he sometimes refuses what's on offer if he doesn't like it, he'd rather go hungry.

Typing this out is helpful, he is trying to be independent in some ways isn't he...but in other ways, not so much.

I was ignoring the armpit hair comments but along with personal grooming, it's a change for him which is the main point. Yes, we're allowed to change our personal habits.

But he rolled out of bed without showering, came to eat and was a bit whiffy, which won't be helped by long armpit hair. He was annoyed at being told to put something on. Also this "everyone has dandruff" thing he says, I realise he's embarrassed and happy to help choose a product etc. But everyone doesn't have dandruff and neither did he when he washed his hair everyday!

My friend whose brother was like this in his 40s, he didn't brush his teeth before work sometimes, his girlfriend marked that one as non negotiable.

I know I sound like the parent saying "pull yourself together", but in the absence of any diagnosis, no admission of anything being wrong, it could be that's what he needs to do. There is a counsellor at the college so hopefully he will talk to them if he struggles. We have said not to repeat the school exercise where he just left without asking for any help from us or them.

What is your husband like with him? I’m not sure mothers ever really solve this problem, we are often ‘too soft’

My advice would be to let older men including his dad loose on him. Uncles, family friends, grandparents, siblings, all of them. Can you host a gathering? Get him involved and interacting with real men outside the virtual world. Let them do that thing they do which is somewhere between piss taking, humiliation, shaming and motivating. He needs to see what ‘real men’ behave like….they have responsibilty and are doing something to become useful by mastering a skill. He needs snapping out of the comfortable rut he’s in

Please don’t do this. It could be irreversibly damaging.

hamstersarse

Really not sure how piss taking would help, but I think most people wouldn't take the piss out of a 22 year old living with their parents. Plus we don't have any family members like that - wouldn't mix with them if we did. If he has ASD or something then piss taking would be a disaster.

DH thinks I'm being harsh, he says it will get sorted eventually. I think the parents with sons in their 40s still doing that probably said the same when their sons were 22.

It's the giving up on a zero hours contract that could have fitted so well round studies that's what has rung an alarm bell....or maybe it's like a last straw after he seems to have packed in sport and socialising for gaming?

oh well, college begins tomorrow - well today now - so fingers crossed.

That’s terrible advice from @hamstersarse.