All parents are toxic narcissists apparently and all adult children have experienced trauma …

[ElspethBulgeworthythethird]

Is anyone else a bit cheesed off with the on-line rhetoric that teens and young adults seem to be plugged in to nowadays…? That somehow everyone is a victim?

That every parent is toxic or a narcissist and every woman over fifty is a “Karen”?

That everyone is suffering from trauma or needs to “heal their inner child”

Oh and then there are all the “special” on-line morning routines that involve, er, getting up, washing, eating your breakfast and maybe exercising; all of which I thought were just standard things that most people did every day without much fuss.

I don’t mean to sound horrible or unsympathetic. Of course there are some young men and women who have suffered truly awful upbringings and serious abuse which has traumatised them terribly. I am not addressing them in this post as of course they need proper support.

This post is about the comfortable young adults I know (my adult children and teens and their friends) who seem to buy in to the rhetoric of victimhood when I happen to know that they have loving parents and come from good homes where their parents willingly made lots of sacrifices for them.

Don’t get me wrong, I happen to think that the period of life between leaving university and getting your first job is one of the most challenging you experience as a young adult; when the struggle finding a job and a flat and new friends and standing on your own feet financially is suddenly very real all at once.

It’s just the culture of this generation that seems to make everyone in to a victim that I object to? Somehow everyone is “special” and “in need of healing” and I get labelled toxic if I say to my young adults that although you are special to me, we are just a very ordinary family, and life is about getting on with things and working hard and not blaming everyone else when you don’t put in enough effort and commitment yourself.

I agree with your OP 100%.

I have 4 children - the older two being 31 and 29. They had very similar upbringings, were teens when their dad and I divorced. Yet one always looks on the sunny side, the other the negative side. They themselves have fallen out over it. The 29 year old being angry that the 31 year old doesnt acknowledge the dreadful (in their mind) times.

If anything, the 31 year old had a much harder time as they had to shoulder some burdens that I could have saved them from. And they saw how the 29 year old took so much of my time, but never complained.

Some people just want to play the victim. It is sad. I wonder if people with their mind-set will ever be happy. I hope so. I also hope the next generation of parents (my children's generation) learn how to nip the victim mentally in the bud in their own kids.

We have had the hardest things to cope with as parents in my view, of any generation.

We have had to cope with our kids having the internet and all that dreadful things that brings, support them with the mental burden that SM brings when it is new to us too. Support MH issues that are new to us (our parents on the whole probably being of the "stiff upper lip", "pull your socks up" view so no role models to help us)

We have had a generation of children with ADD/ ADHD and other diagnosis that our parents didnt have with us, and yes, NOW younger parents get help - but a lot of us didnt 25/30 years ago. So we are left with the guilt that we could/should have helped our children more, but the support just want there.

And now we are called "Karen" if we DARE to complain about ANYTHING. Put up/ shut/ take the blame for not being enough.

Now I am sounding like a "victim" 😂don't mean to, but there it is!

I wonder this too. There seems to be a generation that pathologises every negative emotion. As though they should sail through life feeling above average happiness all the time, and if anyone is ever mean to them, that person must be educated, apologise, be frozen from their lives etc.

I admit to failing as a parent a bit in that respect. I bought into the myth that we should make our children as comfortable as possible. My own childhood was pretty uncomfortable physically and emotionally so I went the opposite way. I was deeply shocked when I realised that DS genuinely thought there was something wrong with him because he was deeply unhappy at a time in his life when deep unhappiness was the only logical response to some appalling situations. he also believed everyone else was happy and their lives ran smoothly. i had to teach him that feeling sad, disappointed, rejected, lonely etc are all perfectly normal, healthy feelings that we encounter along the way and that everyone feels them at some point.

OP, when my two started sneering about how easy Dh and I had had it, as Boomer/Gen X-ers I gave them a right old talking to about waking up with ice inside the window because no central heating, no car, no phone, working from age twelve after school and at weekends because no pocket money, walking to and from school in pouring rain because no car/bus etc. I kept on and on and then asked if they wanted to swap. They never banged on about how easy we had it again!

This Be The Verse

by that noted millennial / Gen X representative, Philip Larkin (1922-1985)

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

I must admit that I am a bit concerned that my DS3s friends will tell him I'm toxic or controlling if I ever expect any degree of consideration of my needs or feelings at all or any communication that isn't entirely on his terms. I get little hints that some of his friends have this sort of attitude to their parents. Sadly it is beginning to make me wary of talking about some subjects or attempting to give him advice.
I don't mind him having increasing boundaries but there is no need to be rude or aggressive about it, there is an adjustment to having young adult children that doesn't happen overnight. Of course he still expects us to help him with " emergencies" but we are not allowed to discuss them after the event!

I think this is a lot of it. Gone seem to be the days of learning freedom and problem solving skills little by little. Universities are having to provide more and more pastoral care even before COVID.

'And you honestly can't tell from the outside what has gone on within a family.. you say you 'know these adults had loving parents but you've no idea what went on in private really.'

Yes. People thought my parents were nice. They were fab at putting on an act and we were threatened to not tell anyone anything. They said all the right things to school and our neighbours. My mum was ‘bubbly’ to others, my dad kept the garden nice and did ‘dad’ things like fix our bikes. All show. Inside was a real house of horrors. Physical and emotional abuse. Domestic violence, silent treatment, guilt tripping us, manipulation. You really never know what goes on.

I have two young adult dc, both generally are well adjusted, working or at uni, I’m very proud of them both.

However I’ve noticed that the first sign of anything not being perfect for them (uni deadline, issues with coworkers, paying bills) in a way that I can’t help with and they need to step up and be adults and deal with it, their first instinct is to be angry with me for not having the answers, and to twist my lack of action (because they are situations that I literally cannot help with beyond offering solidarity and moral support) into me being a toxic narcissist, to the point where I’ve scanned the stately home threads to see if I’ve made it there yet. These apparently well adjusted adults turn into victims at the sign of any stress. In between these times we all have great relationships.

They both had their fair share of teenage rubbish to live and grow through. I thought I’d brought them up to be pragmatic and taught them how to handle situations, but right now the only thing I can do is step back and let them crack on, hoping that they grow out of this weird entitled phase, and trying to grow a thicker skin!

Octavia64 and Brightandshining

I take your points that maybe I am sheltered and have been very fortunate.

I was careful in my op to acknowledge that there are many dc who suffer horrible abuse from terrible parents. And maybe there is more of this out there than I realised and acknowledged so thank you for making that point. I am not dismissing it by any means.

However this thread is not about teens and young adults who have suffered real abuse. It’s about teens and adults who have grown up in loving, imperfect but happy and supportive homes and about the noxious affect that this toxic (to borrow the vocab) on-line rhetoric can have on their view of life. That everyone is a victim. Sorry but I think it’s damaging. And whilst acknowledging that there are young adults who have suffered genuine hardships and trauma, I still think it is a legitimate subject for discussion.

This.

And people who don't understand that absolutely everyone has narcissistic tendencies – it's part of being a human and in some ways contributes to good mental health – but that doesn't translate to having narcissistic personality disorder.

So whenever someone spots someone else displaying a narcissistic behaviour or tendency, they then extrapolate to them BEING a narcissist, which is a significant and rarely-given diagnosis.

It's the same as people screaming TERF at you if you don't perfectly toe the party line around changing rooms or sports.

Naming things and claiming identities can be powerful, but not when it's weaponised and people are only capable of seeing extremes.

Pisses me off, too.

This post is about the comfortable young adults I know (my adult children and teens and their friends) who seem to buy in to the rhetoric of victimhood when I happen to know that they have loving parents and come from good homes where their parents willingly made lots of sacrifices for them.

This is what happens when shades of grey are removed from thinking. Posters on here do this all the time. I very very rarely see any negative interaction described as anything other than abusive/traumatic/horrifically misogynistic or whatever.

These kids could’ve had a childhood that was 90% absolutely fine, but because they were smacked once or twice (NOT beaten) by a stressed out mum, or witnessed a couple of normal arguments between their parents, they repaint the whole thing as ‘abusive’. And hey presto they’re an ‘abused child’ who ‘now has anxiety and depression’.

Of course there are traumatised adults out there whose parents took drugs in front of them, starved and beat them. But their plight is sadly minimised by people who think because Dad made them mow the lawn for their pocket money, or once told them their school grades weren’t good enough, they were ‘abused’ and accuse anyone who says they aren’t as ‘minimising’ or ‘victim shaming’.

I agree OP, a lot of you get adults are blaming their mental health issues in one or two very mildly traumatic incidents in their childhood.

No parent is going to be perfect (if they were that might be called a traumatic event too, as you then need to live up to the ideal of your own childhood!)

I remember in here someone blaming all their issues on the fact that their mum didn’t hug them when the got back from brownie camp.

This is exactly what I am talking about Wheezer . I think it isn’t spoken about enough either.

Somehow parents nowadays are meant to put up with their teen and young adult dc speaking to them disrespectfully, but the parent in turn has to be perfect in every way and respond calmly and promptly and help with any emergency but not discuss the cause of why said thing went wrong.

It does make you anxious about discussing things frankly.

Nuance seems to be disappearing from debate in so many areas - even down to being blocked by people for daring to follow the wrong person or liking the wrong tweet or asking the wrong question - the homogeneity of having to like or have all the same views or risk being ostracised has been such a dangerous creep, amplified by social media.

the concept of just cracking on and resilience seems also to be slipping away. Life is hard work, and can be a bit shit, in amongst enjoyment and success.

Thanks Natura glad I am not the only one and you have described the main issues much better than I can.

I felt this from the op I say to my young adults that although you are special to me, we are just a very ordinary family, and life is about getting on with things and working hard and not blaming everyone else when you don’t put in enough effort and commitment yourself. is not a message I'd want to hear from my mum, and not something I'd say to my own offspring.

I think young people now expect others to recognise that being a human is confusing, scary, messy and complicated. I think they're right.

As for there being a narcissist round every corner, not under the clinical definition no but what there definitely is around every corner is people who are not positive, respectful or nice.

When I grew up there was a lot of shit just accepted - racism, sexism, homophobia were all rife and tolerated. Sexual harassment/assault was constant. I think the younger generation are trying to move forwards and feel angry when their parents dismiss low level shit because that generation grew up swimming in it.

No generation has all the answers. I certainly do not think the period in which I grew up was great.

@Octofuss I've worked in mental health most of my adult working life and am married to a psychiatrist... I know what narcissism is as a psychiatric disorder.. I also know what people mean when they use the term colloquially. Yes many people labelled narcissistic would not meet the criteria for NPD but that doesn't mean their behaviour isn't narcissistic and causing harm. Most people have some narcissistic traits.. its a scale not 'you're either a narcissist or you arent' Obviously to merit an actual psychiatric diagnosis you need to meet certain criteria fully.. but that doesn't mean there aren't tonnes more people out there behaving in extremely narcissistic ways that harm those around them.
People only tend to get actually diagnosed with NPD when its seriously negatively effecting their own lives rather than the lives of others iyswim. You can be a raging narcissist but if you manage to look after yourself, keep a job, a home, not be violent or engage in any overtly criminal behaviour.. you are extremely unlikely to ever recieve a diagnosis of NPD because most people with NPD do not have awareness of it and will not self report. In my career the only people I've ever seen with NPD diagnosis are those coming from the forensic side of things.

" I think the teen years is when lots of parents start prioritising their time more and stepping slowly away from the intensity of parenting young, dependent children as well, and some teens dislike that."

I think this the crux of it - and young people are then resentful of it. E.g. my ex SiL (now a lovely young woman) was resentful at the time that her mum got a job - when she (ex SiL) was 14!

I completely agree. There is no middle ground any more .

I think you make a very good point Jamtartforme about how hyperbolic social media has become and how - when issues are summarised in three minutes - there is no room for nuance.

I think young people now expect others to recognise that being a human is confusing, scary, messy and complicated. I think they're right.

But will they recognise that for everyone, or is it all about them, and the sympathy flowing toward them but never returned? Seems like the latter. Plus what does this even look like? Overanalysing every negative emotion and dwelling on things constantly? Sorry but for minor issues just getting on with it is the best course of action. We’d never get anything done otherwise.

Some people are just horrible, nasty, selfish people, let's not dilute things by referring to part of the spectrum of human behaviours as 'narcissistic traits'.

@Octofuss I dont think it dilutes things I think its an accurate description of certain types of behaviour. It can also be very helpful in spotting patterns in behaviour and how to avoid them or form boundaries regarding them.

I think this type of dismissal of a whole generation is wrong.

For you 'just get on with it' is best but you're only allowed to speak for you.

I suspect I am your age but if a teen called your position toxic I'd understand where they're coming from.

'Just get on with it' is what we were required to do in the old days. It was often quite shit advice.

I remember in here someone blaming all their issues on the fact that their mum didn’t hug them when the got back from brownie camp.

Sometimes people pick a particular event that's emblematic of how they remember their parents feeling about them and acting towards them more generally, because they struggle to articulate how many thousands of tiny insignificant events weave together into a bigger pattern of disposition and behaviour — the brownie camp incident may be the only one they can actually put their finger on as definitely being off.